Stance on uploading patreon images?

iridescent_slime said:

As an aside, what are uploaders supposed to put in the source field when uploading exclusive content like this? Do we waive the requirement for sourcing images when the original is behind a paywall? I ask because patreon_reward source:none currently returns quite a few results and there isn't presently a howto:patreon or anything that explains what to do in this situation.

Current builder practice is to link to the reward post where possible, and failing that the overall page of the artist. Not really any set guideline, just what builders are doing now in regards to the source box. It seems the recent sourceless images are largely regular members.

Putting aside the questions of how bans should work, and how tags and sourcing should work, the fact remains that as long as we condone mass uploading patreon rewards, we're giving artists little choice but to request full bans of all their work. Is that what we want? Because that's what we're doing here.

As for sources: like I said earlier, why should Patreon be any different than any other site? Properly sourcing uploads is one of our core principles, so to deliberately not include sources goes against everything we stand for. Not to mention it adds insult to injury to the artist to not even grant them this. The only reason not to source these posts is to obscure what we're doing here.

And as for nuking the tag: it's not the tag that legitimizes uploading Patreon rewards. It's the fact that we explicitly say it is legitimate. Nuking the tag doesn't change that, it only obscures what we're doing, and only marginally at that. It will still be apparent which things are Patreon rewards, assuming they're properly sourced. Unless we're going to say that Patreon uploads are fine to upload as long as they're not tagged or sourced, in which case we would just be willfully fucking over artists.

evazion said:

Putting aside the questions of how bans should work, and how tags and sourcing should work, the fact remains that as long as we condone mass uploading patreon rewards, we're giving artists little choice but to request full bans of all their work. Is that what we want? Because that's what we're doing here.

As for sources: like I said earlier, why should Patreon be any different than any other site? Properly sourcing uploads is one of our core principles, so to deliberately not include sources goes against everything we stand for. Not to mention it adds insult to injury to the artist to not even grant them this. The only reason not to source these posts is to obscure what we're doing here.

And as for nuking the tag: it's not the tag that legitimizes uploading Patreon rewards. It's the fact that we explicitly say it is legitimate. Nuking the tag doesn't change that, it only obscures what we're doing, and only marginally at that. It will still be apparent which things are Patreon rewards, assuming they're properly sourced. Unless we're going to say that Patreon uploads are fine to upload as long as they're not tagged or sourced, in which case we would just be willfully fucking over artists.

What source do you expect people to use? Only sometimes is the source accessible to any patron. Sometimes for instance, the March 2017 link will only be accessible to those who were charged for it. And many artists will remove access to anyone after a while. These reward links can be quite ephemeral.

Like CodeKyuubi said, the reward link if possible or their Patreon itself failing that. If the dump you got it from says it's the March 2017 pack, then look for the March 2017 reward post. You don't have to be a patron to do this. It's not hard for me to figure out that post #2787610 is https://www.patreon.com/posts/narumemes-12197516, for example.

evazion said:

Putting aside the questions of how bans should work, and how tags and sourcing should work, the fact remains that as long as we condone mass uploading patreon rewards, we're giving artists little choice but to request full bans of all their work. Is that what we want? Because that's what we're doing here.

But dem sweet internet points are worth it doe! /s

Although I believe most of Patreon uploaders here were mass uploading those as a sign of good will a.k.a "sharing is caring", but really, we need a clear limitation for that. But first of all, self-control is even more important.

I already reprimanded two of those kind of users to exert more self-control towards their Patreon uploading habit.

Also an important note. It seems they started to upload Patreon works because of the influence of others. For example, User A uploads a batch of Patreon uploads and got a high scores and favorite counts. User B saw this, and decided to do the same. User C saw this, and decided to do so too and then, eternal cycle continues.

Sacriven said:

But dem sweet internet points are worth it doe! /s

Although I believe most of Patreon uploaders here were mass uploading those as a sign of good will a.k.a "sharing is caring", but really, we need a clear limitation for that. But first of all, self-control is even more important.

I already reprimanded two of those kind of users to exert more self-control towards their Patreon uploading habit.

Also an important note. It seems they started to upload Patreon works because of the influence of others. For example, User A uploads a batch of Patreon uploads and got a high scores and favorite counts. User B saw this, and decided to do the same. User C saw this, and decided to do so too and then, eternal cycle continues.

That's how it works, yup. Check out the artist in question requesting that: ricegnat patreon_reward order:id -- looking at the uploaders does indeed tell a story.

Then of course there's also lasterk patreon_reward order:id.

After Ricegnat's Patreon images were hyper-deleted, how can I unfavorite them? They are still in the favlist, just not showing or existing in any way, and I'd rather remove them.

You might have to manually check which posts exist and which ones don't and remove the numbers from the list, unless someone can come up with a script to do that automatically.

By the way, with the images double deleted, are there any checks in place to prevent someone from uploading them again?

I've never heard about a favorite number list. Do you mind explaining?

I actually got what you call the favlist mistaken for a Favorite Group. How are you able to access the favlist and what does it look like?

My account -> Favorites (number). Posts -> Favorites does the same.

Here's how it looks like: http://imgur.com/5qF5DaF
It's supposed to be 50 thumbnails per page.

Removing those posts from your Favorites is probably gonna take some knowledge of the API, which I don't know.

Were these four remaining Ricegnat's patreon rewards meant to be permanently deleted as well? The deletion reason says "permanently deleted", but they are still there.

ricegnat patreon_reward status:deleted

tapnek said:

You might have to manually check which posts exist and which ones don't and remove the numbers from the list, unless someone can come up with a script to do that automatically.

By the way, with the images double deleted, are there any checks in place to prevent someone from uploading them again?

I believe they mentioned earlier in the thread that they would leave metadata in the database or something to prevent re-uploads of super-deleted ricegnat images?

CodeKyuubi said:

I believe they mentioned earlier in the thread that they would leave metadata in the database or something to prevent re-uploads of super-deleted ricegnat images?

Nope, the records were expunged, and the posts no longer exist. That means that someone can upload them again... :/

tapnek said:

Removing those posts from your Favorites is probably gonna take some knowledge of the API, which I don't know.

AFAICT, it is impossible to do so as it stands, given that the records were expunged. The deletion of a favorite does a lookup of the post record, and since the records no longer exist, that will fail and most likely cause an exception.

Edit:

Created issue #3222.

BrokenEagle98 said:

Nope, the records were expunged, and the posts no longer exist. That means that someone can upload them again... :/

I wonder if Ricegnat/Kerasu is aware of that. Banned artists with all of their works double deleted are easier to check on since we can just double delete any work from them that is uploaded here as soon as we see it but Ricegnat isn't totally banned.

I think the issue is contained at the moment. If at some point Danbooru implements the suggested Patreon-friendly features, I wouldn't mind then if my rewards are uploaded or reuploaded.

This may not be true for everyone though, so I would recommend recording somewhere if any artist requests not to upload their rewards. Perhaps in the artist's tag wiki? Automatically preventing re-uploads is a discussion that has merit, but dissuading people from continuing to upload rewards anyway for the points is more important. I realize there's no airtight way to prevent this, but it should be treated as part of the uploader's responsibility--just like any other aspect of uploading--and dealt with accordingly.

@worldendDominator @reiyasona and others...

For those with favorites that were expunged and therefore couldn't be deleted, a script was run with the recent update that should have removed those favorites. If not, please post in this thread along with the post #'s if you know them. Thanks.

user #425478 (and possible alt accounts) uploading patreon_reward content en-masse.

Only noticed it when I saw a bunch of Sakimichan content without artist tags.

I'm not sure if this counts as thread necromancy or not, but I am far too tempted to weigh in on this discussion, both due to being somewhat familiar with the matter (having been a fansub proofreader and currently a doujin scanslation proofreader, and this sort of topic has come up quite often) and being an outsider here - I threw my $20 at danbooru four-and-a-half years ago and have been reaping the rewards since, but haven't contributed or interacted outside of a tiny handful of minor translations. Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, but I think I can somewhat speak for at least some other lurkers.

Why did I throw my money at danbooru? Part of it was wanting access to more search tags (although I rarely need them) and part access to loli (although it's not hard to get elsewhere). So why invest in danbooru instead of just hopping over to an alternative for the things I couldn't find here? Because it meant a lot to me for it to all be in one place.

albert said:

Danbooru is a site for fans, not for creators. Losing access to art like that would drive me crazy. I don't want to have to manually download everything out of fear that the artist might one day want their art to disappear.

Knowing that I can "trust" one place to have it all rather than forcing me to scour the internet is a big deal. I would much rather scour a single site's fantastic and well-curated tags than an internet worth of torrents. Albert saying that line is frankly kind of heartwarming for me - it's good to know the person at the helm of a resource I value shares a sentiment I feel so strongly myself. The thought of possibly missing out on art that'd mean something - however slight and transient - to me is kind of scary. It's a modern privilege, sure, to know that the better part of humanity's art is at my fingertips, no money or effort needed - but having gotten used to it, I genuinely get a sinking feeling when I think I've lost it. And that's when the conflicts start.

There is a case of a doujin scanslation site (or two) going legit that mirrors this topic pretty well. Everyone happily calls them sell-outs, and in my compulsion to make sure I have access to everything, I went off to download and stockpile everything available to make sure I didn't miss out on something that I would find sweet and wonderful and re-read dozens of times. And then I kind of realized just how much stuff they got to put out - and they only got to put it out because of the money they make from going legit. It's usually not that crisply contrasted when "banned artist" is just a tag click away. But when I get to see the trickle of fan-scanslation doujinshi, and then look at the high-quality behemoth that is people getting properly paid for it, I get to appreciate what something like Patreon goes. It's a somewhat game theory-like thing. You have a choice to engage in rather soft piracy, choosing between getting all of the content or some of the content. But if everyone chooses to get all of the content the easy way, there's way less content because the artist needs to find other work - and everybody gets less art in the end than if they sat happily on the free releases, and the ones who really cared became patrons.

I can't act like I don't understand both sides, or genuinely sympathize with them. But push comes to shove, a lot of my life has benefited from piracy. From the games my dad burned onto CDs when we first came to America because we didn't quite have the money to get them all properly, to many happy memories reading visual novels I never would've tried if I had to pay money up-front. Having all of the art humanity has produced is a wonderful luxury, and it means a lot to me to keep that option. Some of the games I've enjoyed most, and ended up purchasing - I heard of from friends who pirated them. But I obviously can't guess how many things that I otherwise pirated I would've chosen to purchase if it wasn't an option. Perhaps not many at all, but at least a few, right? It still makes a difference in the end.

I didn't even realize what "banned" meant, that's how I ended up on this thread. I saw a bunch of high quality stuff (sakimichan's, not exactly my taste, but undoubtedly well drawn), saw the banned and patreon tags, and asked myself "what's the point of it being banned if I can see it anyway?" and eventually ended up in this thread as the answer.

These are just a bunch of thoughts. I'm sure most people have heard most, if not all, of these sentiments many times over, but I somehow felt the need to end my years of lurking for this one post. The difference between "all of the high quality art is on one website" and "almost all of the high quality art is on one website" is that nagging feeling in the back of my head of "But what if I missed something good? Really good? Think of all the things in my life that I luckily stumbled into and hugely enjoyed, and how much I'd hate to have not done so..."

I suppose it doesn't matter too much if it's Kerasu, since I'll definitely throw money at him someday and get access to that stuff, but what bothers me is the thought that there's an artist I'd like just as much, and I would never get to know their name or follow them, because I would've never seen that one illustration that pulled me in, because it wasn't included in a search it was relevant to because it happened to be a patreon reward from years ago... or something like that. I know it's an unreasonable modern privilege to want all the art available to me in an easy-to-search-through format, but given how perfect danbooru has been at scratching that "but I'm not missing out on something really good, am I?" itch thus far, I'd hate to see it stop. I'm definitely not the only one. I'm not sure if I've said anything useful to anyone, but I hope I've given some insight into the mind of a person that danbooru means a lot to.