fate_(series) incorrect tags, need immediate fix

ruler_(fate/apocrypha)
jeanne_alter

They are two entirely different characters, how come when searching for Jeanne, it also includes her alter personality?
Same goes for Saber and Saber Alter.

Edit: These should be standalone tags, I'll try to find more. They are all entirely different characters.
saber_alter
saber_bride
saber_lily
santa_alter
artoria_pendragon_lancer_(fate/grand_order)
artoria_pendragon_alter_(fate/grand_order)
dark_sakura
jeanne_alter
jeanne_alter_(santa_lily)_(fate)
heroine_x
heroine_x_(alter)
ishtar_(fate/grand_order)

Because Jeanne is the base form of Jeanne alter. It's similar to how the cosplay tag works, where we tag the character that is being cosplayed. If you want to search exclusively for Jeanne, add -jeanne_alter to your search, though you'll miss out on images where they're both present.

CodeKyuubi said:

Because Jeanne is the base form of Jeanne alter. It's similar to how the cosplay tag works, where we tag the character that is being cosplayed. If you want to search exclusively for Jeanne, add -jeanne_alter to your search, though you'll miss out on images where they're both present.

Ok, WarGreymon's base form is Agumon, how come it's not included? I've got million more examples. :-)

mj1234 said:

Ok, WarGreymon's base form is Agumon, how come it's not included? I've got million more examples. :-)

Because Jeanne is the base form of Jeanne alter. It's similar to how the cosplay tag works, where we tag the character that is being cosplayed. If you want to search exclusively for Jeanne, add -jeanne_alter to your search, though you'll miss out on images where they're both present.

Bolded for you as you seem to have trouble reading.

CodeKyuubi said:

Bolded for you as you seem to have trouble reading.

Are you seriously arguing that Jeanna Alter is the same as regular Jeanne because it's just another "cosplay"?

mj1234 said:

Are you seriously arguing that Jeanna Alter is the same as regular Jeanne because it's just another "cosplay"?

Because Jeanne is the base form of Jeanne alter. It's similar to how the cosplay tag works, where we tag the character that is being cosplayed. If you want to search exclusively for Jeanne, add -jeanne_alter to your search, though you'll miss out on images where they're both present.

Bolded for you again and italicized, as you seem to have continued troubles reading.

They both have entirely different personalities and they're nothing alike, so no, they're not similar at all.

Guys guys guys, let's be chill. I don't know the exact reasoning for why it's currently the way it is, but there are more well-versed users in this kind of thing.

@KyteM @willsolvit Maybe help explain? Sorry for the abrupt notice.

Whether to tag derivative characters as the original or not is one of those things that hasn't ever been decided or discussed formally. I included it in the big retagging proposal but I got a severe case of 'I have a job now' so it kinda fell to the wayside.

Also nobody was replying to the thread. I'm on the phone right now so I can't dig it up.

For what's it worth, they are effective different characters, even if they share visual design.
Considering how many clones there are, I'd go with treating them as something like twins and not tag Jeanne on Jeanne Alter, or Saber on all the saber clones and so on.

I think I would support a de-implication for many of the fate characters, but it would require some massive amount of cleanup because of how they were introduced in the first place.

But if there was a reason for them to be present in the first place (enough to outweigh diluting the hell out of classic saber in lieu of all the saberfaces), then I'd like to know.

AFAIK for those who aren't Fate aficionados but don't mind spoilers:

I may be a bit off on the details - I don't play F/GO myself.

A better though not 100% equivalent comparison from Fate itself seems to me like emiya shirou vs archer - I assume that spoiler is past the statute of limitations.

If Emiya and Archer have different tags I think Jeanne and Jeanne Alter should too.

Mikaeri said:

I think I would support a de-implication for many of the fate characters, but it would require some massive amount of cleanup because of how they were introduced in the first place.

But if there was a reason for them to be present in the first place (enough to outweigh diluting the hell out of classic saber in lieu of all the saberfaces), then I'd like to know.

Once upon a time the only variants were saber_lily and saber_alter, which were practically a non-character and an costume costume, respectively. I assume past that it was just inertia?

http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/2606028
artoria pendragon alter (fate/grand order)
artoria pendragon lancer (fate/grand order)
saber
saber alter

One character, but with four character tags... This will require a massive amount of time to fix but if we don't do anything about it right now, it's only going to get more difficult.

Indeed. Might need the attention of an Admin for this. @KyteM Want to draft a BUR to deimplicate them all?

Why, exactly, does this require immediate attention?

I thought it was logical to tag variations of a character with the tag of the original character too. Much like, for example, achi_cirno, advent_cirno or tanned_cirno pictures are also tagged cirno.

Basically, maybe Saber Alter, Saber Lily and Sakura Saber are all massively different from regular Saber, but they're still variations of that character, in the end. Same for Jeanne and Jeanne Alter, etc.

Flandre5carlet said:

I thought it was logical to tag variations of a character with the tag of the original character too. Much like, for example, achi_cirno, advent_cirno or tanned_cirno pictures are also tagged cirno.

Basically, maybe Saber Alter, Saber Lily and Sakura Saber are all massively different from regular Saber, but they're still variations of that character, in the end. Same for Jeanne and Jeanne Alter, etc.

Not necessarily, they should not be tagged cirno because they're not cosplays but different characters.
Look at chloe_von_einzbern, it's separated from archer and illyasviel_von_einzbern, same goes for emiya_shirou and archer. Regarding archer, it appears emiya_alter is linked with archer... I mean, this is the laziest way of tagging things.

I think it's fairly logical to assume that even if most of these characters are indeed "variants?" of each other, they also can be considered entirely different characters in the realm of FGO and the fate-verse overall.

And it isn't really intuitive either -- If you want to find just regular Jeanne Alter, for example, you're going to have to put up with Jeanne Alter (Santa Lily) (Fate) appearing in the same search too. And in that search, regular Jeanne Alter might not even appear since Jeanne Alter is a superset of Jeanne Alter (Santa Lily), and thus all matches from jeanne_alter_(santa_lily)_(fate) also are in jeanne_alter, even if again, regular Jeanne Alter isn't in it.

Same goes for Toosaka Rin. Now generally you can trust the vanilla Toosaka Rin (the one from Fate/Stay Night) to always have that copyright attached (fate/stay night) but then it becomes a major headache if you want to find images with both regular Toosaka Rin and her possessed counterparts in FGO, Ishtar (Fate/Grand Order) and Ereshkigal (Fate/Grand Order). There's no good way to do it other than basically trusting that the someone did indeed tag fate/stay night in the image.

Tagging Fate stuff is always a massive headache anyway, and I do surmise we should bump this in the Great Fate Character Retagging Project, but it is an important concern since having the implications this way makes it especially hard to search for any single character without character search collisions, basically.

mj1234 said:

Not necessarily, they should not be tagged cirno because they're not cosplays but different characters.

I really don't see why they shouldn't be tagged Cirno. They're all variants of that character, either fan made or official. They're not entirely new characters that have nothing to do with regular Cirno, but different versions of Cirno.
Not tagging those pictures with just Cirno would make it impossible to search pictures that include any variant of the character because you'd have to know every single tag AND search for every single tag at the same time, if you wanted that.
Honestly sounds really tedious and inconvenient not to tag variants with the original character.

Now I'm only using Cirno as an example; I don't know entirely much about Fate but it sounds to me like the same kind of deal with all the different Sabers or Jeannes or whoever else.
Although Fate sounds like a nightmare to tag characters for though, much like Mikaeri mentioned.

Flandre5carlet said:

I thought it was logical to tag variations of a character with the tag of the original character too. Much like, for example, achi_cirno, advent_cirno or tanned_cirno pictures are also tagged cirno.

Basically, maybe Saber Alter, Saber Lily and Sakura Saber are all massively different from regular Saber, but they're still variations of that character, in the end. Same for Jeanne and Jeanne Alter, etc.

It's the difference between twins and the same person in two different outfits. Those are all still Cirno. Fate works and FGO in particular have made it clear the variants are separate individuals from the originals.

Mikaeri said:

Indeed. Might need the attention of an Admin for this. @KyteM Want to draft a BUR to deimplicate them all?

Sure, I have spare time at work. :V

Flandre5carlet said:

Not tagging those pictures with just Cirno would make it impossible to search pictures that include any variant of the character because you'd have to know every single tag AND search for every single tag at the same time, if you wanted that.
Honestly sounds really tedious and inconvenient not to tag variants with the original character.

I did bring that up in topic #13728. The way to solve that is by normalizing tag names so you can use wildcards properly.