I just received a neutral record for insufficient tagging.
Back in the day when I'm still active in the forum, the standard consensus and from albert himself was that the necessary required tags are: copyright, artist, characters, and a couple of general tags. I always keep to that minimum standard if I'm uploading a large quantity of images, and always go beyond that if I have the time.
I hadn't read the forum for years now, so I'm unaware of any change to that minimum standard. Thus I would like to know if this warning record is fair. Please look at my tag history, and tell me if I keep doing what I'm doing, will it turn into a negative record?
If it will never turn into a negative record, it means my way of doing things is fine. Then I don't think that warning record is fair. If I didn't break any rule and someone just personally wants me tag better, then they should contact me via mail. Because it's then a favour, not a rule.
In short, I just want to know the current hard-and-fast rule. If I'm not breaking any, I want that warning record removed.
You're tagging the characters, copyright and so forth okay.
But your use of general tags is often chronically poor. You're single-handedly contributing about half the site's gentags:<5 -no_humans images (they won't show up in the search because I - and sometimes others - tag them up), usually with just 2 general tags. And a lot of your uploads that don't fall into this only don't because of tag implications and/or tags that are added automatically. There's no rule about the minimum number of general tags you use, of course - I just use <5 as a way of getting to images that are under-tagged and missing lots of priority level 0 tags* - which are also largely the ones referenced in the general tags section of howto:tag. And your uploads often are missing these. For instance post #2626066 was tagged only with 2girls (which is wrong) and chibi. post #2627781 was tagged with just everyone and official art. These examples aren't exceptions but seemingly your modus operandi.
In all honesty I'm not sure on what the official rules are for these matters (the rules page only says that you should have read the tagging guidelines, not that you actually follow them!), but you're failing to meet every listing of what tags should be in an upload that I've ever seen and are clearly making no real effort to put general tags on your uploads. You're not the only one who I've given feedback to on such things, and I'm not the only one who has given feedback on it to people either. And yes, negative feedback on this matter has been given out fairly often in the past, including to people who tag characters, copyright, artist and source at around the same level as you do.
If you want the record removed then start adding the basic general tags to each upload, then come back to me in about a month and I'll remove it. Or I might remove it without you coming back to me, if I remember to. I just deleted a similar feedback I left to another user who is now tagging their uploads somewhat more consistently. Hmm... Maybe I should create a positive feedback for people who improve their tagging? Nah, probably best not to as that would create a net positive record when said people still generally aren't tagging well.
It doesn't need to be perfect, and you do tag things decently occasionally - something like the level of tagging you did with post #2627813 or post #2626156, for instance, would be absolutely fine.
*With the intention of adding the tags to the image, of course. Ideally I'd like to see this search return zero results. Which there's no reason why it can't.
Here is the thing: I don't care about my record. I care about rules.
The neutral record is used as a warning system. It alerts the user that they're breaking a rule, as well as telling other people that "this user had been warned, so if you see him make the same mistake next time, you can give him a negative."
So my question is, what rule had I broken? If I don't change my tagging habit at all, would you give me a negative next time?
- If yes, then I'll refrain from uploading anymore in the future. The only time when I don't tag a dozen of blue tags per pic, is when I have a massive backlog of a series that nobody uploaded. I cannot labour more than minimally required to, because burning out is real, and if I'm burnt out then obscure series will still get neglected.
- If not, then please remove the record. Because you're abusing a formal system to impose a personal opinion on me.
I hope you realize that the email system exists for stuff like this, where you can communicate personal opinions. I would have been happy to explain to you and we could have come to an understanding. Forcing a person to do things they aren't absolutely required to is not okay. You're supposed to ask them that favour.
Justifications for Negative Records Tags Refusing to properly tag uploads in accordance to Danbooru Quality Guidelines.
Assuming this means the howto:tag page (and I don't see anything else it would refers to - other than the tagging checklist which again I have pointed out where you are failing - bear in mind that said tagging checklist has written under priority level 0 "All posts MUST have these tags, if possible"), I've already pointed out the part of it that most of your uploads (and they are most of them) are not meeting.
If you don't want to upload stuff then that's your choice (although I fail to see how basic tagging is so arduous that it prevents you from being able to upload anything at all as you seem to be implying). Don't try to pin the blame on me for it.
Of course I know about the email system and use it more often than I use the feedback system. Usually to point out to people that are repeatedly misusing a specific tag.
Incidentally, slightly surprised that @Provence thinks your tagging looks fine given that he is one of the many people who have given neutral or negative feedback for this very thing to considerably better taggers before now...
Because I had a conversation with some mods about this topic and they said that about 5-10 general tags + copyright + artist + characters are fine, but leaves much to desire. So I will refrain from creating such records in the future. The only exception is when this user thinks they can get away with it by using tagme. I've written a pretty long text for an user because of that back in November(?). Anyway, I think that 5-10 are fine with the tagging checklist and lifts most posts up to level 2 or 3.
Well, I use this as a judgment: http://isshiki.donmai.us/user-reports/taggers/%21CURRENT.html (play a bit with the third column) There might be some post with less tags, but then I'd contact the user first now. Sal.N uses ca. 14 tags per upload. That looks fine. It should be better, though.
I'm pretty sure that char/artist/copy tags are included in that, and I think source probably is as well, so for a user who generally doesn't upload original tags and tags those things properly that's at least 4 tags (often more) with every image already accounted for. An image like post #2626066 mentioned above is thus dragging up their average with just 2 general tags (well, technically 3 as there was the implicated multiple girls tag as well).
Two tags are off course not acceptable (especially if they are wrong). If a feedback is justiefied...probably. But I think that after having some conversations, it's better to just contact the user via a DM.
I'm pretty sure that char/artist/copy tags are included in that, and I think source probably is as well, so for a user who generally doesn't upload original tags and tags those things properly that's at least 4 tags (often more) with every image already accounted for. An image like post #2626066 mentioned above is thus dragging up their average with just 2 general tags (well, technically 3 as there was the implicated multiple girls tag as well).
You have yet to point out a solid rule that I have broken. We don't operate on feelings or "should" here. If you have a problem with the current requirement, please bring it up to a mod and create an explicit rule, so that users can follow fair and square.
Once again, what are you going to do if I keep my tagging habit? Continuing giving me neutral records? That is not how that system is supposed to be used.
I'm not challenging you. I'm genuinely interested in clear rules because it facilitates smooth operation. Back when albert was active, he explicitly mentioned that 5 tags (including artist/character/copyright) are the minimum. I had always gone beyond that when I can, so it's shitty of you to accuse me of permanent sloppiness.
Go check my tagging history. It seems you only saw a few images in my uploads 4 days ago and immediately jumped to the conclusion "oh this one ALWAYS only does 2 tags," which is wrong.
If you don't remove the record, I'll bring this up to a mod.
I've seen your uploads not just 3 days ago but over several months - and stretching back several years. I hadn't left a feedback previously as the images in question were often a month or more old when I came across them, and new ones were usually a couple at a time.
Go ahead and bring it up with a mod. It's you who is wanting to change how things operate, and I've nothing more to add (at least not unless a mod brings up a proposal that I feel I need to give feedback to) - it's clear that nothing I say on the matter will be able to satisfy you anyway.
For Christ's sake, do we really have to start making empty threats like that? I'm more than sure there is already a mod or two lurking these forums. And if not, I'll even offer to contact a mod myself, because it sounds damn petty.
Times have changed -- probably a good idea to take a good look around how other users are using the site and how good uploaders are uploading. Yes, a DM would've been fine at first but the record would've probably been written there and remained after to serve as a reminder to go back and garden your ups anyway. I've done that with other users, like if they haven't sourced their uploads. Hell, there are many old feedbacks some users don't bother removing even after the user has learned their lesson. At least this is an opportunity.
But moreover, I'm appalled you're that stricken by the fact you need to tag your uploads better. Sure they're acceptable but at least you could try to live up to the title of builder, even if it has been an awful long time since last you contributed.
EDIT: And it seems you haven't heard about changing Twitter sources to HTML on your uploads either. Some users give neutral records on those too, even without forewarning. *Especially* if you have a great number of them.
Just a suggestion for Moderator+, so take it or leave it, but it's IMHO that grievances against another user like the above should be handled via DMail and not in the open forum. Workplace disputes are never solved in the workroom, and instead are handled behind closed doors. So should it be here.
My suggestion would be to add a rule, or it could be called a guideline/whatever, encompassing the above idea and added to topic #4782. Thanks.
By the way....should the threshold of required tags be changed? Because in all honesty: Character + Copyright + Artist + 1girl + solo would be enough if I apply the guideline mentioned by Sal.N. Then, tags like tagme can be added, because it is not laziness if this guideline is fulfilled. In my eyes, this is too low and tagme is calling out to other people that they should tag for you (and I really don't like if tagme is used like that). If we really apply all this we can't say that tagging is the second most important part of Danbooru and tag gardening is accumulating to a mass that is bearly manageable (see the tagme tag with a post count of 53k).
I agree. Besides tag gardening becoming even a bigger task, if poor tagging like that was actually the "minimum" here, sure, uploaders wouldn't get burnt-out, but that'd be just adding even more work to other users who tag their (and others') posts properly. Doesn't sound fair compared to people who only would have to browse a bunch of sites and mash the Danbooru Bookmarklet, now does it?
And we'd also have to change the definition for tagme, which right now is clear as water:
To be used when you know, or feel like, there are more tags to be added but don't know, or can't remember/find them.
More specifically, it should be kept until an image can be reasonably determined to be tagged to at least "Level 3" as per the howto:tag checklist.
Not to be used as an excuse for laziness; tag your uploads as best as you can.
Besides that, the tag checklist (which is linked above, as well) wouldn't need to even exist if we actually applied that policy. Why tag levels when we just can put copyright/character/artist and slap two general tags in? Another problem with that system would be searches becoming way more tedious and limited, for example.
In short words, my opinion is that the current tagging guidelines are fine and we don't need to change them in order to allow lazy/poor tagging.
Again, that's just my opinion. If I offended anyone, I'll apologize now. Also, I know I'm not the best person to talk about these topics, but I think that change wouldn't improve anything.
For Christ's sake, do we really have to start making empty threats like that? I'm more than sure there is already a mod or two lurking these forums. And if not, I'll even offer to contact a mod myself, because it sounds damn petty.
Times have changed -- probably a good idea to take a good look around how other users are using the site and how good uploaders are uploading. Yes, a DM would've been fine at first but the record would've probably been written there and remained after to serve as a reminder to go back and garden your ups anyway. I've done that with other users, like if they haven't sourced their uploads. Hell, there are many old feedbacks some users don't bother removing even after the user has learned their lesson. At least this is an opportunity.
But moreover, I'm appalled you're that stricken by the fact you need to tag your uploads better. Sure they're acceptable but at least you could try to live up to the title of builder, even if it has been an awful long time since last you contributed.
EDIT: And it seems you haven't heard about changing Twitter sources to HTML on your uploads either. Some users give neutral records on those too, even without forewarning. *Especially* if you have a great number of them.
I think this is excessively combative. Sure he was being a bit obstinate but that doesn't make it okay to ratchet up the hostility back and forth. We should remain civil and ascribe the best of intentions to those we disagree with.
I dunno if the explicit guidelines ever were changed since then, but the implicit ones among gardeners and uploaders certainly has. Not fond of the "minimum is enough" thing that goes by unnoticed sometimes, and there's a handful of users thinking the same -- they're more proactive about warning other users through the neutral feedback.
Here's the way I see it -- Dmail only works when a user seems willing to learn from the small mistake(s) they've made. But when it is a recurring action, then a more explicit reaction is needed. In addition to said user, other users notice it, and take note that this is not the way to do things. Yes, it's making an example of them, but a feedback can always be removed if so desired. All it takes is probably a few polite Dmails back and forth asking if they've improved or if it's fixed, and I think it's resolved.
But just thinking things like those aren't how they're supposed to be used and trying to bend a rule or guideline that doesn't exactly fit your case is... iunno, selfish.
