All right, I'm out on uploads - the auto-approval is crap

This post is 90% whiny bitch - I know that. I'm venting.

I don't mind my stuff getting deleted. Some of it deserves to get deleted ( post #2128167 was way too jpegged, I'd delete it too ). I've been pretty happy with the mods deciding which posts get approved and which posts get deleted. About 5% gets deleted, and that's good! - Some quality control is required.

EXCEPT then there is a shitload of crap that gets automatically approved because it's bulk uploaded, and then I'm really wondering why my stuff got deleted when it's far better than Danbooru's standards.

Here's two of my deleted posts: post #2422010 and post #2460547. Well, okay, I can see those not getting approved, they're kind of simple and cartoony, no background, and the sketchiness isn't everyone's thing. Fair enough.

But then here is literally the first approved post on main page load: post #2464691. And here is post #2464572. And post #2464625. And post #2464626. All on the first page. This got approved as 'high quality art'. Are we low class enough that we can't tell that airbrushing or a non-white background doesn't instantly mean great art? It's not just my uploads - many deleted pics are far better than what gets automatically approved. I cry for some of those blue frames.

I'm not leaving forevar and will still visit every day and translate and tag where I can. I love Danbooru. But I'm done bothering with the hassle of uploading till the shit that gets approved is actually better than the shit I'd upload.

And before you say anything, please explain how post #2464691 is higher quality than post #2422010.

-- Bitch Out

@sarusa
Your comparisons don't make sense. Or better said: You're missing something: All posts you said are not high quality are uploaded from Contributors. They don't have to get approved, they can simply bypass the queue. Although you can always flag them if you are of the opinion they don't belong here.
So I don't really see why you are leaving uploading. Makes me a little sad since you have only 7 deleted uploads and nearly 200, so you have an eye for quality.

Provence said:

@sarusa
Your comparisons don't make sense. Or better said: You're missing something: All posts you said are not high quality are uploaded from Contributors. They don't have to get approved, they can simply bypass the queue. Although you can always flag them if you are of the opinion they don't belong here.
So I don't really see why you are leaving uploading. Makes me a little sad since you have only 7 deleted uploads and nearly 200, so you have an eye for quality.

@Provence: that's really my complaint - the Contributor uploads are often lower quality than manually uploaded pics, and they completely bypass the quality checks so you get a lot of mediocre pics that are much worse than what gets deleted by non-approval.

I think you're an excellent moderator, so what's the fix for this? Just aggressively mark bad contributor uploads as bad_art?

sarusa said:

@Provence: that's really my complaint - the Contributor uploads are often lower quality than manually uploaded pics, and they completely bypass the quality checks so you get a lot of mediocre pics.

I think you're an excellent moderator, so what's the fix for this? Just aggressively mark bad contributor uploads as bad_art?

Well, this has also to do with topic #13091.
Albert rejected the idea of demoting Contributors due to inactivity and indirectly also low upload amount.
But that is were maybe such upoads come into place. Like I said: Try flagging them if you think that they should be deleted. That's all you can do for now.
And I'll revive the discussion in the Contributor topic in few days and maybe even today. Because there are still two things untouched by albert.

Oh, and I'm not a moderator...luckily :P.

Provence said:

Well, this has also to do with forum #13091.
Albert rejected the idea of demoting Contributors due to inactivity and indirectly also low upload amount.
But that is were maybe such upoads come into place. Like I said: Try flagging them if you think that they should be deleted. That's all you can do for now.
And I'll revive the discussion in the Contributor topic in few days and maybe even today. Because there are still two things untouched by albert.

Oh, and I'm not a moderator...luckily :P.

All right, I think you're a fine Builder. I'll try more flagging, see what happens. :)

post #2464691 is our ground zero.

And before you say anything, please explain how post #2464691 is higher quality than post #2422010.

Because it actually is? I didn't approve the videl one because it's just too messy, especially around the boots. The other one has clean and properly filled linework to the edge, with no sketchy penmarks, and 2 people called your flagging out with an appeal and a comment, I almost thought it was a mistake. Not trying to pick a fight here but come on, I even regularly undelete pics, but I can justify each one of my undeletions as a janitor on the pictures own merit. This sort of comparison stuff was forbidden years ago because nothing good came of it.

As for the fumbles of the contributors, I don't endorse anyone mass uploading anything, contributor or not. I also don't support mass flagging or appealing. The more time spent on thinking about individual pictures, the less time on arguments over them.

Provence said:

Well, this has also to do with topic #13091.

I fixed that for you. (Topic is the thread, forum is the post in the thread). forum #13091 goes to quite the different thread... :)

BrokenEagle98 said:

I fixed that for you. (Topic is the thread, forum is the post in the thread). forum #13091 goes to quite the different thread... :)

Lol, yeah. I correct that in the post above, too.

sarusa said:

post #2422010

The sketchiniess isn't really that big a deal for a large majority of this image but it has zero shading and the artist appears to have just given up when it got down to the boots. The image you're so offended by has correct proportions, is well shaded, and is overall more skillfully drawn.

Log said:

The sketchiniess isn't really that big a deal for a large majority of this image but it has zero shading and the artist appears to have just given up when it got down to the boots. The image you're so offended by has correct proportions, is well shaded, and is overall more skillfully drawn.

Also, that post #2464691 is pretty well drawn. Clean lines and all.

While I'm a fan of kireinamo and his rough style, even I hesitate or upload everything he does. His best art is his ero stuff, I'm sad to say.

sarusa said:

All right, I think you're a fine Builder. I'll try more flagging, see what happens. :)

Sorry to disappoint you, but nothing will happen. Just prepare for another rounds of frustration when your diligently reasoned flags will be overruled with one "lol, nope" click of another approver.
And even if flag stays, there won't be any consequences for poster. Just +1 to his deleted post quota. My previous attempts of explaining that the importance of deleting flagged post which was self-approved should be much much bigger (because it got caught and thus implies there might be many others which didn't) had fallen to deaf ears.

I love Danbooru. But I'm done bothering with the hassle of uploading till the shit that gets approved is actually better than the shit I'd upload.

Welcome to the club.

Anything that retards the relentless flow of uploads is sadly welcome.

Whilst sorry for individuals the sheer number of posts to go though cuts down on the number one is actually able to look at.

Each American eats just 63 dozen doughnuts a year: it would be impossible for him to enjoy them if he or she had to daily wade through a roomful of a million doughnuts to select the most succulent.

Claverhouse said:

Anything that retards the relentless flow of uploads is sadly welcome.

Whilst sorry for individuals the sheer number of posts to go though cuts down on the number one is actually able to look at.

Each American eats just 63 dozen doughnuts a year: it would be impossible for him to enjoy them if he or she had to daily wade through a roomful of a million doughnuts to select the most succulent.

From the Top 50 uploaders, 40-something have "unrestricted" priviledges :/

I've been toying with an idea for a while that is related to some of the above comments...

In manufacturing, even after the assembly line has been certified to create parts within a certain tolerance, a random sampling is still sent to a quality control agent to manually check that part to verify that it is indeed still within tolerance.

So it could also be on Danbooru...

Those with the unlimited upload privilege and approval privilege have already proven an eye for quality within a certain tolerance.

Still, for those with unlimited upload privileges, a random sampling, let's say 1 in 100 would be sent to the moderator queue even if the user had intended to bypass the queue with that upload.

Also, for those with approval privileges, a random sampling, let's also say 1 in 100 would be sent back to the moderator queue to get the opinion of a second approver.

Thoughts? I'd be interested to hear from people with either/both privileges...

BrokenEagle98 said:

I've been toying with an idea for a while that is related to some of the above comments...

In manufacturing, even after the assembly line has been certified to create parts within a certain tolerance, a random sampling is still sent to a quality control agent to manually check that part to verify that it is indeed still within tolerance.

So it could also be on Danbooru...

Those with the unlimited upload privilege and approval privilege have already proven an eye for quality within a certain tolerance.

Still, for those with unlimited upload privileges, a random sampling, let's say 1 in 100 would be sent to the moderator queue even if the user had intended to bypass the queue with that upload.

Also, for those with approval privileges, a random sampling, let's also say 1 in 100 would be sent back to the moderator queue to get the opinion of a second approver.

Thoughts? I'd be interested to hear from people with either/both privileges...

Isn't that better adressed in the Contributor forum I mentioned above :P?
But yeah, that sound like a good idea. So that means that every Contributors has to offer some kind of quality. The only thing is that one upload isn't high enough. Shouldn't it be five to ten? Because one upload does not really provide a good amount of a upload/deleted ratio. If I upload an image from ke-ta and that falls under the queue, then the image is instantly approved but the next upload might be a Pokémon post with no humand that could bypass the queue without problems unless it gets flagged.

Provence said:

Isn't that better adressed in the Contributor forum I mentioned above :P?
But yeah, that sound like a good idea. So that means that every Contributors has to offer some kind of quality. The only thing is that one upload isn't high enough. Shouldn't it be five to ten? Because one upload does not really provide a good amount of a upload/deleted ratio. If I upload an image from ke-ta and that falls under the queue, then the image is instantly approved but the next upload might be a Pokémon post with no humand that could bypass the queue without problems unless it gets flagged.

The idea is more of a feedback loop more than anything else...

Every deleted upload I have, especially those since I gained the unlimited upload privilege, I take as feedback as what to upload versus what not to upload, or at least what to send to the queue versus what not to.

Therefore, the idea would be that the above idea would give feedback to those with privileges.

Also, I don't want to unnecessarily increase the load on the approvers, which was why I chose such a low ratio.

For administrative use, if a majority of those QC uploads that are sent back to the queue consistently get deleted, that sends a certain message that the mods/admins can act on, just like if a majority of parts in manufacturing that gets QC'd is rejected, the assembly line is either overhauled or replaced.

BrokenEagle98 said:

Still, for those with unlimited upload privileges, a random sampling, let's say 1 in 100 would be sent to the moderator queue even if the user had intended to bypass the queue with that upload.

Also, for those with approval privileges, a random sampling, let's also say 1 in 100 would be sent back to the moderator queue to get the opinion of a second approver.

Thoughts? I'd be interested to hear from people with either/both privileges...

To be honest, I don't like this idea at all. The random aspect seems like it would just be punishing and frustrating to users that upload/approve good posts. It says: "we trust you to upload/approve, but not fully". If your idea is to provide feedback (which is a fine idea), I think there are far more effective ways of doing that. For the example, the feedback system. It appears to work fairly well in correcting bad tagging behaviour, I see no reason why it can't also be used for bad upload behaviour. Another way to provide feedback would be to create a report system. Rather than flagging individual posts, which might not be noticed amid a lot of other uploads, users could be reported for consistently bad uploads or approvals. These reports would be visible anonymously to the offending user, and otherwise to mods and admins only, who could then take whatever action they see fit, be it nothing, a warning or loss of privileges. I believe that would create much better feedback than having to go through the mod queue randomly again sometimes.

I really don't think bad contributor uploads is as big a problem as it's being made out to be, but admittedly I tend to only look at a few copyrights, so I don't have the best overview of the site as a whole.

Jarlath said:

Also, that post #2464691 is pretty well drawn. Clean lines and all.

+1

Provence said:

Well, this has also to do with topic #13091.
Albert rejected the idea of demoting Contributors due to inactivity and indirectly also low upload amount.
But that is were maybe such upoads come into place. Like I said: Try flagging them if you think that they should be deleted. That's all you can do for now.
And I'll revive the discussion in the Contributor topic in few days and maybe even today. Because there are still two things untouched by albert.

IMO users should only loose their unrestricted upload permission if there are strong indications for a declining upload quality. In this case, the most obvious indicator is the amount of rightfully flagged posts (posts that are flagged an deleted afterwards).

richie said:

Sorry to disappoint you, but nothing will happen. Just prepare for another rounds of frustration when your diligently reasoned flags will be overruled with one "lol, nope" click of another approver.
And even if flag stays, there won't be any consequences for poster. Just +1 to his deleted post quota. My previous attempts of explaining that the importance of deleting flagged post which was self-approved should be much much bigger (because it got caught and thus implies there might be many others which didn't) had fallen to deaf ears.

Diligently reasoned flags should not just be ignored. As already mentioned above, the flagging system is pretty much the only quality control mechanism for uploads that bypassed the mod queue.

BrokenEagle98 said:

The idea is more of a feedback loop more than anything else...

Every deleted upload I have, especially those since I gained the unlimited upload privilege, I take as feedback as what to upload versus what not to upload, or at least what to send to the queue versus what not to.

Therefore, the idea would be that the above idea would give feedback to those with privileges.

Also, I don't want to unnecessarily increase the load on the approvers, which was why I chose such a low ratio.

For administrative use, if a majority of those QC uploads that are sent back to the queue consistently get deleted, that sends a certain message that the mods/admins can act on, just like if a majority of parts in manufacturing that gets QC'd is rejected, the assembly line is either overhauled or replaced.

Spot checking quality control can only help to reassure that the basic quality control system is working as intended. The heart of that system is the perception of every user here on Danbooru. Users that come across bad quality art should be encouraged to make use of the flag function, especially if the artwork in question was uploaded by a user with unrestricted upload permission. QC is very important to ensure that users with special permissions don't degrade over time (decadence). Some might even feel tempted to put quantity over quality, while striving to dominate the scoreboards (@BrokenEagle98 nice work there btw.). :P

To respond to both Blue Trident and reiyasona, and others with similar thoughts...

Now I hope that I'm not the only one that has observed and believes the following (if I am, I'll just shut up and go back to coloring ;-)

• The quality criteria for flagged posts is different from the quality criteria for approved posts:

1. Namely, I've observed that posts have to be of bad quality to be successfully flagged and deleted.
2. Also, I've observed that posts have to be of good quality to be successfully approved.
3. This leads to posts of fair quality being uploaded... not bad enough to flag, but probably not good enough to have been approved

It's difficult/impossible to track the quantity of these kinds of posts without a random QC IMO.

BrokenEagle98 said:

To respond to both Blue Trident and reiyasona, and others with similar thoughts...

Now I hope that I'm not the only one that has observed and believes the following (if I am, I'll just shut up and go back to coloring ;-)

• The quality criteria for flagged posts is different from the quality criteria for approved posts:

1. Namely, I've observed that posts have to be of bad quality to be successfully flagged and deleted.
2. Also, I've observed that posts have to be of good quality to be successfully approved.
3. This leads to posts of fair quality being uploaded... not bad enough to flag, but probably not good enough to have been approved

Correct. That's why I think that flagging should be encouraged for posts that were uploaded by users with unrestricted upload permission.

BrokenEagle98 said:

It's difficult/impossible to track the quantity of these kinds of posts without a random QC IMO.

Maybe we could link the amount of posts that are randomly pushed to the mod queue to the amount of deleted uploads. This would create a dynamic spot sampling system similar to the logic behind the calculation of the upload limit.

Examples:

• user with unrestricted upload permission uploads 100 posts -> 0 get flagged and deleted -> 0/100 + 0.05 -> 5% of future uploads get pushed to the mod queue
• user with unrestricted upload permission uploads 100 posts -> 5 get flagged and deleted -> 5/100 + 0.05 -> 10% of future uploads get pushed to the mod queue
• user with unrestricted upload permission uploads 100 posts -> 10 get flagged and deleted -> 10/100 + 0.05 -> 15% of future uploads get pushed to the mod queue
• user with unrestricted upload permission uploads 100 posts -> 20 get flagged and deleted -> 20/100 + 0.05 -> 25% of future uploads get pushed to the mod queue -> trigger alarm -> mod evaluates the situation (possible removal of the unrestricted upload permission)