Posted under Tags
Ola said:
So if you want to keep Tail red and Souji different, we have to do the same for all the other characters as well.
Well, that was the intention in the first place with my reply in this thread because there's clear differences with the others too (hair color with Tail Blue, and physique with Tail Yellow). I've gone ahead and made those two consistent for now.
The illustrations from volume 1 make it look like one word.
richie said:
Funny how you're complaining about your problem which is comparatively easy to resolve, and in the same time bossing around with complicated solutions of problem which doesn't concern you.
It isn't a complicated solution at all and it does concern me as I am a user of Danbooru. The main issue isn't that it becomes harder to search though, it is that there is absolutely ZERO reason to not tag a character by name if it isn't a spoiler. Look at what not applying the tag has done; Do you know how often I have to add "genderswap" to tags with tail_red?
richie said:
Not "character looks different" but de facto "they become different characters".
Which tail_red does not. Souji does not become a different character! He/she is still a twintails loving person with the same personality.
richie said:
The change of your typical male protagonist to buxom girl/flat-chested mahou shoujo/small black piglet is not equal to putting the mask or cloak on yourself. Such different characters are distinguishable enough not to confuse both forms of them. This is a meritoric reason.
Again, this is not applied to such characters as "Ranma" or Naruto when he transforms as well it shouldn't. The ONLY reason it is even possible to do in this case is because Souji has a mahou shoujo name/title as well.
richie said:
it's comparitively easier to deal with problems of separate tagging than the one you stand for.
No its not.
richie said:
We should remove saotome_ranma and hibiki_ryouga from their ranma_chan and p_chan pictures respectively.
But Ranma-chan isn't Ranma's name, it is a fan nickname simmilar to "kyonko" or "Naruko". Using this as the sole tag would be comparative to using tags such as "narusuke" when taging images where Naruto and Sasuke are pictured as a couple in an image.
EB said:
Well, that was the intention in the first place with my reply in this thread because there's clear differences with the others too (hair color with Tail Blue, and physique with Tail Yellow). I've gone ahead and made those two consistent for now.
So if a character changes their hair color or hair style then they should not be tagged by their name? Oh. I though we had a tag for that sort of thing? Same goes for images where characters were different clothes or are depicted as children/different heights by pixiv artists. I mean, if you do realize that if you start removing character names from characters because they don't look the same in all images kind of makes it hard to find them in a search right?
NWF_Renim said:
The illustrations from volume 1 make it look like one word.
The character illustration for "Sora" has her name spelled as "Solar", yet in the character card her name is ソーラ・ミートゥカ (Sôra Mituka) But Danbooru tags her as "sora", something not supported by any source.
Setsunator said:
Do you know how often I have to add "genderswap" to tags with tail_red?
If Tail Red is going to be treated as a character in and of herself, is the genderswap tag even appropriate here? In this case I'd think the tag would be more appropriate on a theoretical image of a shota Tail Red. Whereas Sora (or whatever her name should be) would be the simple genderswap of Souji.
And if Tail Red is going to be tagged as genderswap then logically she should also be tagged younger or age_regression since Souji got turned into a loli rather than a teenage girl.
Lynx190 said:
If Tail Red is going to be treated as a character in and of herself, is the genderswap tag even appropriate here? In this case I'd think the tag would be more appropriate on a theoretical image of a shota Tail Red. Whereas Sora (or whatever her name should be) would be the simple genderswap of Souji.
And if Tail Red is going to be tagged as genderswap then logically she should also be tagged younger or age_regression since Souji got turned into a loli rather than a teenage girl.
Yeah and that's another problem... in short ALL genderswap look like different characters right? So should we drop the whole genderswap tag altogether since no longer fills a function? I mean say I know Souji's name and want to find genderswap images of him... and what turns up? like ONE image and that one is the dual_persona one. And say you want to know what Tail_red's real name is and find out what she looks like in her real form? Oh I have to go the extra mile and search in the wiki (which not everybody knows about) simply because somebody thought it was a good idea to start removing characters names when they looked a bit different.
I'm telling you guys -- this is perhaps the dumbest taging idea I've ever seen.
Setsunator said:
So if a character changes their hair color or hair style then they should not be tagged by their name? Oh. I though we had a tag for that sort of thing? Same goes for images where characters were different clothes or are depicted as children/different heights by pixiv artists. I mean, if you do realize that if you start removing character names from characters because they don't look the same in all images kind of makes it hard to find them in a search right?
I'm not arguing that at all (why would I, since as you say, it makes it harder to search: a character should always have a relevant character tag wherever possible). None of those cases are what I'm talking about here: a distinct canonical alternate persona with a name that can be tagged.
The issue of canon and/or established genderswaps has come up several times like in topic #3003 and topic #9818. I don't think I have an opinion on what to do there. Interpreting genderswap narrowly would make it easier to find the non-canon genderswaps, though that could also be done by giving them a specific new tag (a massive tag edit undertaking since there's over 15k images).
@Lynx190
Right now we're using now genderswap as a tag saying "there is a person on this picture who has his/her gender different than formerly had". The usage of it is broad, begining with obvious well-known canon cases like Ranma, through many implementations of rule 63 done by fans, to cases when genderswap is something we know beforehand, sometimes even nameless orignal ones who are tagged genderswap only because author said so. As it is I think it serves its purpose, for example it can be easier to remember a copyright title than exact name of persona who was genderswapped in it. And I really don't know why to change this - but if you want to create and apply new, better rules for this tag then good luck for you with that (and I think you're gonna need it).
As for younger tag it's always iffy to add it when we don't have appropriate reference for it. True, Tail Red might look lolish, but there is no evidence that she becomes really younger when (s)he transforms (and not she simply had a childish appearance to begin with).
I just think tagging canon genderswaps has the potential to end up diluting the tag for people trying to find genderswaps of random characters (if you want canon ones you can just search the specific character already, if they don't have their own character tag then obviously the genderswap tag would be necessary); I'm using the same logic here as why it was decided to quit tagging Kancolle images as personification even though the characters are technically personifications of WWII ships. Now, Oretwin is nowhere near as big as Kancolle, but what if some genderswapping series ended up becoming insanely popular? genderswap only has 15k posts, compared to even just kyonko at 2k posts (although not all tagged genderswap).
I don't really have any personal stake one way or the other, I only started thinking about it as a result of reading this thread, but I just felt it was something to consider.
create alias tail_red -> tailred
mass update tail_red_(cosplay) -> tailred_(cosplay)
create alias tail_blue -> tailblue
mass update tail_blue_(cosplay) -> tailblue_(cosplay)
create alias tail_yellow -> tailyellow
create alias tail_black -> tailblack
create alias iisuna_(oretwin) -> acena_(oretwin)
Putting all of the mentioned official spellings into a bulk update.
richie said:
Right now we're using now genderswap as a tag saying "there is a person on this picture who has his/her gender different than formerly had". The usage of it is broad, begining with obvious well-known canon cases like Ranma, through many implementations of rule 63 done by fans, to cases when genderswap is something we know beforehand, sometimes even nameless orignal ones who are tagged genderswap only because author said so. As it is I think it serves its purpose, for example it can be easier to remember a copyright title than exact name of persona who was genderswapped in it.
Which is a perfect case of making it easier to search for a character. It is the opposite of removing the name of a character simply because they are in their transformed state.
Lynx190 said:
I just think tagging canon genderswaps has the potential to end up diluting the tag for people trying to find genderswaps of random characters (if you want canon ones you can just search the specific character already, if they don't have their own character tag then obviously the genderswap tag would be necessary); I'm using the same logic here as why it was decided to quit tagging Kancolle images as personification even though the characters are technically personifications of WWII ships. Now, Oretwin is nowhere near as big as Kancolle, but what if some genderswapping series ended up becoming insanely popular? genderswap only has 15k posts, compared to even just kyonko at 2k posts (although not all tagged genderswap).
I don't agree that it would dilute, rather it is this silly way of thinking that made them start removing character names from transformed states. There is no logical reason as to do so. Why would it dilute? When I search for genderswaps I want images of ALL genderswaps. For instance say I want an image of Ranma right? But I've forgotten his name right? I remember she/he is a genderswap and how he looks so I search for "single_braid" + "genderswap" and voila I find images of her.
Also back to searching for tail_red. I want images of her but have forgotten her alias. I only remember her real name so I search for "Mistuka_souji" + "genderswap" and presto!
EB said:
I'm not arguing that at all (why would I, since as you say, it makes it harder to search: a character should always have a relevant character tag wherever possible). None of those cases are what I'm talking about here: a distinct canonical alternate persona with a name that can be tagged.
But you aren't being consistent then and you are making it harder to search and even to tag. I'm constantly forced to tag images with Tail_red in them as "genderswap" because people simply forget to tag them due to there not being a mitsuka_souji tag to go along with it.
EB said:
The issue of canon and/or established genderswaps has come up several times like in topic #3003 and topic #9818. I don't think I have an opinion on what to do there. Interpreting genderswap narrowly would make it easier to find the non-canon genderswaps, though that could also be done by giving them a specific new tag (a massive tag edit undertaking since there's over 15k images).
Which would be silly. If a tag for fanon-genderswaps was made then a tag for all manner of "fannon" would need to be created. As I pointed out, it is a dumb idea. There is absolutly ZERO reason to remove the actual name from genderswaps. It makes it harder to search for and people that tag images and haven't actually seen the show will think it is a different character and wont add such tags as "dual_persona" ect.
EB said:
create alias sora_(oretwin) -> solar_metca
Official full name
I request proof of this actually being the case. Official spelling has only been shown as "ソーラ・ミートゥカ" on cards, I've never seen it written out in English.
Setsunator said:
I request proof of this actually being the case. Official spelling has only been shown as "ソーラ・ミートゥカ" on cards, I've never seen it written out in English.
Funimation is using Solar Metca, as well as all the other spellings that have matched up with the awkward English spellings presented in the Light novels.
Gonna be the Twin-Tail!!
Red on the RopesEpisode 11.0
Soji awakens to find himself in the form of Solar Metca, a slightly more grown-up version of Tailred. He also comes up short in combat with an Elemelian, and the others become concerned about him. Spider Guildy goes all in to beat the Twin Tails.
She is already spelled "Solar" in the original light novels. See Laethiel's post on the first page. "Solar Metca", as NWF Renim, notes is used consistently in the FUNimation streaming release, and I have no doubt it's an officially provided name given how they have subtitled cast credits (not something FUNi regularly does) and that their names have matched up with the official light novel spellings so far. Like Acena, it's a made-up name of no particular language origin, so it doesn't really need to follow any romanization rules.
NWF_Renim said:
Funimation is using Solar Metca, as well as all the other spellings that have matched up with the awkward English spellings presented in the Light novels.
Funimation is Western, it has no bearing on what Danbooru uses.
EB said:
She is already spelled "Solar" in the original light novels.
And Ryuu from Street Fighter is spelled Ryu. Sora isn't a western name, it is a Japanese name. But even so, there is nothing about "Metca". That is pure westernization.... in fact what does Metca even mean?
Meanwhile "Mituka" is an actual Japanese female name and "Sora" is sometimes used as a surname. So The proper tag should be "sora_mituka" (Sora being the surname and mituka the given name)
EB said:
See Laethiel's post on the first page. "Solar Metca", as NWF Renim, notes is used consistently in the FUNimation streaming release
Again, what Funimation does holds absolutely no value.
EB said:
I have no doubt it's an officially provided name given how they have subtitled cast credits
What you "believe" holds no value either. Only facts and actual proof matter.
EB said:
Like Acena, it's a made-up name of no particular language origin, so it doesn't really need to follow any romanization rules.
umm no, Mituka Sora is actually a Japanese name. It isn't "made up". As for the whole "Solar", that might be a cutesy Japanese naming. You know how girls give each other nicknames? Or slightly mispronounce a name since it makes it sound like something else? Remember, in the LN the full name wasn't written, so it is very likely that "Solar" was more of a nickname.
Setsunator said:
umm no, Mituka Sora is actually a Japanese name.
ソーラ (Soora) is not ソラ (Sora)
ミートゥカ (Miituka) is not ミツカ (Mitsuka): if you didn't know, トゥ is a completely foreign sound to the Japanese language
Despite what it seems to looks like to you, these are not regular Japanese names. It's a fantasy name much in the same way Twoearle and Acena are. If you spot a romanization of it in official Japanese materials that is different, then I'll prefer whatever spelling that is and admit I'm wrong here. An official name originating from a Western source (that in all likelihood still originates from the Japanese producers who licensed the title to them) is still preferable to an unofficial fan guess.
Updated
"Solar" is how it is displayed in volume 4 of the light novels, though ソーラ being Solar doesn't pop up much in google results, with the exception of the Solar System super weapon from Gundam which is ソーラ・システム. Solar System would be ソーラーシステ ム (which more commonly is used to refer to solar power systems it seems going by results), and Solar is written as ソーラー.
Personally I think it's another instance of someone throwing Japanese into google translate and just using whatever the output for English is, but since that is what they're running with officially, nothing much that can be done about it if both the Japanese and Official English agree on the same spelling for a Fantasy name.
Updated
EB said:
ソーラ (Soora) is not ソラ (Sora)
Actually both way of spelling it is valid.
EB said:
ミートゥカ (Miituka) is not ミツカ (Mitsuka): if you didn't know, トゥ is a completely foreign sound to the Japanese language
No, Mituka/Mitsuka it is the same thing. The nowadays many Japanese names are written in katakana/hiragana and don't always even have kanji versions. It is the same kind of odd thing that is happening with Japanese surnames and given names. People born nowadays write their given name before the surname, but people born say in the 70s still write their surnames first.
The hiragana is the way the name is meant to be pronounced. But say 蜜花 can be pronounced both as Mituka and Mitsuka. When/if a name doesn't have any kanji, that does not mean that it isn't Japanese.
EB said:
these are not regular Japanese names.
umm no... there aren't many people named Mituka Sora, but Mituka is Japanese girls name and Sora isn't a super rare surname in Japan.
EB said:
It's a fantasy name much in the same way Twoearle and Acena are.
No, it is a real Japanese name chosen because it sounds like a foreign name. Sora (depending on the kanji?) Can be read as sky? But it can also be pronounced as Soooora (solar) It is a pun of sorts. Twoearl however is an alien as is Acena. Why would they have Japanese names? Souji however if he wanted to blend in wouldn't change his name into something foreign.
EB said:
If you spot a romanization of it in official Japanese materials that is different, then I'll prefer whatever spelling that is and admit I'm wrong here.
No that isn't how things work. Until official romanization of such names have been found, then we go by actual spelling... not the other way around. FUNimation have no relevance so we can't use it as a source, we do however have the actual Katakana... which is what we need to go by.
EB said:
An official name originating from a Western source (that in all likelihood still originates from the Japanese producers who licensed the title to them) is still preferable to an unofficial fan guess.
No, that isn't Danbooru policy. First of all, your assumptions regarding the origin is not proof so it can't be used to argue your point. Secondly it isn't a "fan guess", it is the actual way the Katakana spell out the name.
NWF_Renim said:
Personally I think it's another instance of someone throwing Japanese into google translate and just using whatever the output for English is, but since that is what they're running with officially, nothing much that can be done about it if both the Japanese and Official English agree on the same spelling for a Fantasy name.
But neither Sora nor Mituka are fantasy names... they are actual Japanese names.
Setsunator said:
No, Mituka/Mitsuka it is the same thing. The nowadays many Japanese names are written in katakana/hiragana and don't always even have kanji versions. It is the same kind of odd thing that is happening with Japanese surnames and given names. People born nowadays write their given name before the surname, but people born say in the 70s still write their surnames first.
The hiragana is the way the name is meant to be pronounced. But say 蜜花 can be pronounced both as Mituka and Mitsuka. When/if a name doesn't have any kanji, that does not mean that it isn't Japanese.
tsu and tu are distinct sounds with completely different characters in Japanese. Compare: トゥ (katakana tu) with ツ (katakana tsu). You're confused because some romanization systems romanize tsu as tu, but that's only an artifact of poor romanization and has nothing to do with the Japanese itself.
And no one has mentioned anything about the presence or absence of kanji. The pronunciation alone makes it clear that this isn't a Japanese name.
You should at least learn to read kana first if you're trying to understand the Japanese language, it's impossible otherwise. Romaji is not an acceptable substitute as it will only stunt your understanding.
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