Anime-relatedness of 4chan memes on Danbooru

Of course, the loudest voices are those who think nothing is or ever was wrong. Of course it delved into a bit of drama. A much needed drama though, if something is to be done correctly.
In fact, there is plenty wrong. The very thought of a janitor openly admiting that Terms of Service, ones they surely accepted, are guidelines and shouldn't be enforced made me shudder in discomfort at what direction some have taken. In no way am I a perfect figure, but I didn't fall that low yet.

There is a lot of text in this thread, some good points, some erroneous, won't touch them all, I have too little new to add, but to save space and not use the quotes too hard:
1) If something is drawn good, the style doesn't matter, the subject doesn't matter much. The 'more offensive' pictures generally have a tendency to not be drawn too good. Generally. 4chan pictures most often are not well-drawn, but some are and some fit what this site's primary focus used to be. No banning or mass-deleting will take place. Comics/doujin are allowed extra leniency, as they have something more to offer.
2) Name's dropping is bad only when there is no fault. (I admit to wording one of my flag's badly when using some's name in it, but that name has far too many garbage accounted to their approval list. Served as a good ward though.) There is plenty of wide open fault laying about.
3) It's not the rules that are meant to be changed to be more convenient to rule-breakers so it's not rule-breaking anymore, it's the other way around. Things change, yes, but the primary goal of this website should stay the exact same, no matter how much a few people want to jeopardize that.
4) While it's true there is no one true anime style, there is one general outline of it that's more widely appreciated than others. And 'you'd have to be a noob not to notice that', to use the person's own words.
5) The 'joke' of Touhou being at favoritism stake is not half as joking as it's claimed. While there is an abundance of artists drawing it and the subject is popular, then it should be thrived to keep the content of it at top-notch due to how much of it is there. I'll link my own post from two years ago, where I explicitly pointed out how bad the situation with it was forum #79881 (warning, it's got name's dropping which currently aren't relevant). And that it has too many approvers of really bad things to try to clean it up, especially in context of it not getting any better.
6) Sorry, I wanted to keep it quote free, but this is too brilliant not to.

It's hard to understand, but some of the rules are just poorly worded and were created to prevent an influx of shit art.

It's funny you say this. I don't want to be rude, but maybe put a bit more care to make that 20% deletion ratio go down a little, so you saying that doesn't sound so blatantly ironic? I know you mostly fill-in unpopulated tags, but pictures you find often aren't worth anyone's attention, mate. And more commonly, they are what this subject is about, so I know why are you reacting like that.

Please don't derail the thread in response to my post, if that's at all possible. Have a nice day.

Wypatroszony said:

It's funny you say this. I don't want to be rude, but maybe put a bit more care to make that 20% deletion ratio go down a little, so you saying that doesn't sound so blatantly ironic? I know you mostly fill-in unpopulated tags, but pictures you find often aren't worth anyone's attention, mate. And more commonly, they are what this subject is about, so I know why are you reacting like that.

Please don't derail the thread in response to my post, if that's at all possible. Have a nice day.

17.9%
It's hard to get a good percentage when you upload as much as I do.
Can't find detailed statistics to see month-by-month %.
Can tell that I have more Japanese artist/subject deletions than Western.

I don't really weigh in on things here anymore (though I used to be very involved in helping shape and debating Danbooru policy), but this seems to be contentious thought I thought I'd throw in my two cents for what it's worth. I'll also note it's been a long long time since I've done much of anything with 4chan, and I've completely missed this #gamersgate thing except seeing the occasional tangential reference to it online.

The major issue seems to be if things should be excluded for being non-anime related. By and large that is true. If something is of a non-anime-related theme *and* drawn in a non-anime-related way, generally it should not be approved. As for 4chan (or other) memes, there is no rule saying that they are or are not allowed, with the exception of clearly stated cases like motivators. If they fit all other criteria they are allowed and should be accepted if of good enough quality, if not, they shouldn't. A photographic "doge" with text on top is not acceptable, this Vivian James character is obviously modeled in the anime style, and most of the art depicting her seems passable to me.

Because she is designed in an anime style, western style depictions *may* be appropriate (we accept western parodies of other anime related characters), but I probably wouldn't approve them myself or particularly endorse them (I'd have let post #1774985 auto-delete for instance). In any case quality trumps everything else, if it's genuinely crappy quality it should go (a rough oekaki/ms paint or pixelated style is not sufficient to say it's crappy (post #1777027 looks just fine to me).

As for the subject matter, again I have no idea what any of this #gamersgate thing is, except that it's caused drama elsewhere. While I didn't always agree with it, Danbooru has a very no-nonsense policy when it comes to commentary outside the curation of images itself. If any person decides to start or participate in a flame-war (or even really have a serious debate that's not Danbooru-related), that person should be warned and/or banned depending on circumstances. That doesn't mean imagery with a particular subject matter should be banned or even judged based on subjects alluded to. We strive to judge and tag based on what you see, not on prior knowledge of what the image depicts.

As for "rules are rules, and you must enforce them all to the letter": Frankly, that's never been the case on Danbooru. We've been stricter and laxer at various points, but it's always been the case that the rules are flexible to be bent in certain circumstances (at an admin, mod, or janitor's perrogative). If it's done too frequently, or too egregiously, debate can occur, policy rehashed, and in the worst cases a person demoted or banned. This doesn't appear to be that sort of case. As I explained above, I'm not sure the rules are even really being bent here with one noted exception. Non-western depictions of anime-modeled characters are a frequent bend of the rules (and again one I don't necessarily always approve or endorse).

Someone please correct me if anything I'm mentioning has changed in official policy since I've actively used the forums, but this is my understanding. Art that doesn't break the rules (and anime modeled characters don't) are acceptable. Drama or flame wars in any manner are not. Obviously off-topic and off-subject memes and poor-quality art are not acceptable (keeping in mind that acceptable quality is defined as passing the mod-queue either initially or upon being flagged by being approved by a Janitor, Mod, or Admin).

Again, I'm not too active here anymore, so if I respond it may be quite delayed. I just wanted to put my own prerogative based on Danbooru's history out there.

Wypatroszony, it looks like you are going on a flagging spree, which is fine, though not the response I'd recommend. I'm going to try to keep an eye on that. For the most part I agree with your flags (based on quality, even where they are probably targeted for other reasons), but you need to be aware that sketchy and/or pixelated does not in any way correlate with "bad art", both are perfectly acceptable styles here.

Shinjidude said:
But you need to be aware that sketchy and/or pixelated does not in any way correlate with "bad art", both are perfectly acceptable styles here.

I am, I have several of those on my tally. However, I have a "slightly" higher standard for them than that.
They are simply crude and dirty and I'd rather have them sketches cleaner, slightly closer to a finished product and not as rather half arsed as those. Not going to cause a storm about it though, because it doesn't bring anything lucrative.

I can definitely see your argument, but again the bar for quality is whether any one of us on the mod team approves it for quality. Obviously flag where it's needed, but be aware of other people's general guidelines when making a judgement on what doesn't belong.

Hazuki who was one of the most prolific mods back when I started here (though basically gone now it seems) was a staunch defender of rough sketches and works-in-progress, and I agree with him that there is a certain nice, almost organic aesthetic about them you don't get from a finished, polished piece and definitely qualify for inclusion here. Certain art like oekaki almost *can't* be polished and smooth no matter how much skill the artist has and no matter how much time and effort goes into them.

EDIT: I just wanted to clarify that the general criteria is whether any one of us approves it, but the flagging system exists to allow people to put a second set of eyes on something. So even if it is a janitor, mod, or admin that posts something, that shouldn't have any bearing on if something ought to be flagged. Genuinely and unambiguously sub-par posts *should* be flagged regardless of who posted or approved them. I'm more speaking general guidelines. You can be as picky as you like when you approve (and really you should be picky to a degree or you shouldn't be modding), but you should be somewhat lenient to the general acceptable quality level when it comes to flagging. This isn't a critique on you at all, Wypatroszony. I just wanted to clarify my own thoughts on the matter.

Janitors/mods can still see who's flagging images, right?

Could someone please explain to me why this image was just given re-approval when it was flagged for "pixelated, low-quality artwork"?

Throwing everything about whether it's anime-related or not, there is no way you can justify something that looks like the work of 10 minutes in paint as being of sufficient quality for Danbooru.

NWSiaCB said:

Could someone please explain to me why this image was just given re-approval when it was flagged for "pixelated, low-quality artwork"?

Throwing everything about how, apparently, we don't care about artwork being anime-related anymore, there is no way you can justify something that looks like the work of 10 minutes in paint as being of sufficient quality for Danbooru.

Could you please explain why you don't deserve a temp ban for backseat modding?
/s

Kikimaru said:

Danbooru lies at an intersection of anime and gamer culture. The artwork contained therein has always reflected this.

Although, yes, many video game-related things are considered part of "anime culture", that is only the case when the game is actually related to that culture in some way. (Although that's basically just interpreted as "Japanese game".) Hence, Metal Gear Solid artwork is accepted, but even high-quality Mass Effect artwork is deleted for lack of anime-relatedness unless it were an "animefication" image.

And yes, Danbooru's standards have always reflected this, as can be seen from Western game artwork drawn in a Western style by Western artists being deleted for many years running.

Vivian James is not related to anime culture, even under the umbrella of "Japanese gaming".

Further, most of the Vivian James artworks are drawn along the Western edge of the border between anime-style and Western-style. Yes, Western styles influenced anime, and now anime has been influencing Western artists, but anything more than a casual glance can tell the difference between the level and style of work typical of an average Deviantartist "vaguely influenced by anime and something that represents the cream of anime-style artwork or high-quality images of Japanese gaming. (Not that, by any measure, the typical Pixiv user is any better than the typical Deviantart user, but that's a discussion of quality. And yes, there are Western artists whose works are quality and truly follow anime-style. It's just that most of these images we are talking about here don't qualify.)

Kikimaru said:
My advice to you:
Take a short breather from Danbooru, and lurk moar.

(You know, if someone is trying to tell you this website has different standards than 4chan, and 4chan memes aren't necessarily anime-related or appropriate then spouting off the stereotypical 4chan response doesn't particularly fill people with confidence that you understand that concept...)

Considering as I needed to remind you (twice) that Danbooru actually DOES distinguish anime-related from Western works, maybe you are in a greater need of a refresher... especially when you have already been chided in this thread on the quality of the works you have been uploading by a janitor.

Kikimaru said:

Could you please explain why you don't deserve a temp ban for backseat modding?
/s

If you mean "using the flagging system and forum for their intended purposes," then because I am using the tools of this website for their intended purpose.

Kikimaru said:

What the fuck is "Eternal September"? Last I checked, we're nearing the end of October.

Z905844 already posted a link to the term's wikipedia page, but I'll clarify why I'm using the term: Eternal September occurs when there are no rules in a community. (When a community is polite and well-policed by the community, they will discourage the rude posters from being rude, or else if a critical mass of assholes arrives, then everyone in the site winds up being an asshole as anyone who isn't an asshole leaves.)

With regards to this site, if we simply "accept things like what already is being accepted" then all it takes is a couple very prolific posters determined to see something become "accepted" and a few janitors who approve anything to result in this place having even lower standards than Gelbooru, since we're not even stopping at anything related to Japan anymore, either.

NWSiaCB said:

Could someone please explain to me why this image was just given re-approval when it was flagged for "pixelated, low-quality artwork"?

Throwing everything about whether it's anime-related or not, there is no way you can justify something that looks like the work of 10 minutes in paint as being of sufficient quality for Danbooru.

I wouldn't necessarily call that one fantastic, but... 10 minutes in paint? Really?

The whole thing with "non-anime" posts aside, I think you're having an unnecessarily high standard for quality. Though the guidelines for uploads exist, they just can't be applied perfectly to every single post, as each janitor/mod will have their own tastes and standards; so obviously there's going to be things that you don't approve of in the site. But in the end, what gets accepted and what doesn't is up to them, as Shinjidude said.

...really, if it bothers you that much, then I'd say that you'll probably want to try and become a janitor yourself.

Pianist said:

I wouldn't necessarily call that one fantastic, but... 10 minutes in paint? Really?

The whole thing with "non-anime" posts aside, I think you're having an unnecessarily high standard for quality.

I honestly find it shocking that something like this is defended by saying I have unnecessarily high standards. (And here, I remember when images were deleted for jpeg artifacts I couldn't even see until someone talked about them, and I leaned in close to the monitor...)

That image has flagrantly blocky, jagged edges in areas that are supposed to be curves. All but one of the freckles (which may just be a error/use of the wrong pencil tool) are all clearly made by a pencil tool of the same width. It's a fairly rough outline followed by the fill tool. The only portion that doesn't seem to have been drawn in the hastiest manner possible was the hashmarking on the eyes. If you don't think it's 10 minutes, then 15 is about as high as I'm willing to go. (Not that I don't understand being hasty for putting something up on "it will be gone in two hours" place like 4chan, but the standards for what goes up here should be different...)

If that were a Touhou image, that would definitely be getting another argument about how quality standards are so much lower for Touhou works... apparently, it's lower still for anything 4chan-related.

Pianist said:
Though the guidelines for uploads exist, they just can't be applied perfectly to every single post, as each janitor/mod will have their own tastes and standards; so obviously there's going to be things that you don't approve of in the site. But in the end, what gets accepted and what doesn't is up to them, as Shinjidude said.

While yes, there's always going to be subjective guidelines here, the problem I see is that this has slipped down to "there are no rules at all, and anything someone likes gets uploaded, regardless of flagrantly being against the objective standards". When someone starts arguing that it's somehow crazy to distinguish between Western and anime-style artwork, or that the rules don't matter, people could just start uploading Marvel comics.

When someone starts arguing that it's somehow crazy to distinguish between Western and anime-style artwork, or that the rules don't matter, people could just start uploading Marvel comics.

I'm sorry I really, really like Stanley Lau.

Anyway, there aren't too many sticklers on this image board as there should be. It's strange to see shops getting approved by janitors, but I'll flag things down. Other users should flag derivative works as they see them and see how that goes.

A wild Asparagus has appeared!

Pianist said:

...really, if it bothers you that much, then I'd say that you'll probably want to try and become a janitor yourself.

That's right. Let's have albert another janitor contest or whatever, since there seem to be people who are not very content with modding. Let them try. I wanna! Enlist me as top candidate!

NWSiaCB, I'm curious to see where these images stand in your vision of what is and isn't acceptable on the site.

Kikimaru said:

Could you please explain why you don't deserve a temp ban for backseat modding?
/s

While admittedly there's a thread for debating about the acceptance or deletion of specific images, if there were never any discussion there would never be understanding, change, or any order, really. If discussion gets stagnated to the point where higherups feel it's time to close it down, that's their prerogative.

Pianist said:

...really, if it bothers you that much, then I'd say that you'll probably want to try and become a janitor yourself.

I'd love to myself someday, though I'm still not sure I'm familiar enough with the wider sections of the site and will probably never be a high-volume uploader. Plus there seem to be plenty of them at the moment.

NWF_Renim said:

Image List

I didn't realize there was so much powerpuff-style art. Should I be miffed the one I uploaded was taken down? post #355216

NWSiaCB said:

why I started this thread - these rules should be enforced at the janitorial level, and they aren't.

Your premise is off. What gave you the idea the "rules" are absolute? You won't like hearing this, but as others have said, what's acceptable is decided by an imperfect and subjective system of janitors/contributers, promotions/demotions, flags/appeals, etc. The wiki is to help inform new users of what's most likely to be approved. You should reread it keeping this in mind: howto:upload

Notice what we have here are guidelines and the language isn't absolute but rather uses "generally accepted/rejected". The sentence "Only anime-style art will be accepted." is immediately tempered with "Art which are done in other styles are highly likely to be rejected." - perhaps the former is a mistake.

NWSiaCB said:

If that's the case, then why is "not anime related" not only in the rules, but also the first reason given for why you should flag an image?

Read it again more carefully. The dialog isn't telling you to flag posts for the listed reasons; it's listing the common reasons. You may also notice it pretty much covers the TOS. While you may be inclined to believe these are the absolute rules you're looking for, browsing the following tags will reveal the reality is different.

furry
watermark
*_artifacts
guro
gigantic_*

For what it's worth, I don't think you'll find many people who completely share your views on what counts as anime-related and what counts as quality. post #1777027 looks anime-style to me, and I don't hold the time it took to create nor the tools used to create it against it.

Lastly, in case your "everything gets approved" hyperbole is serious, you can read about the approval process: about:mod queue.

Personally I'm fine with the process as it is, there's room for people who enjoy the landscapes and great western art, video game art, strong comic series and such, but people will care if something thats significantly poor drops the quality of the site at large, and there's a real sense the site is curated. Some might not be satisfied with the status quo, either for it's looseness or strictness, but this site has never in my view dropped in quality since I first came here, and has consistently improved since the site founding.

We've got good janitors and fine contributors who each bring a different taste and curate things so that no one way of doing things dominates. To have someone flagging the most outrageously bad art that remains forgotten and clutters things up, and having art in the middle get its time in court, shows to me the system works.