Donmai

Anime-relatedness of 4chan memes on Danbooru

Posted under General

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Kikimaru said:

You're creating a shitstorm out of nothing.

Well-drawn images stay.
Fun images stay.

It's worth pointing out that you are the one who uploaded several of the offending posts, including the one that sparked all this...

So far, however, the argument seems to be "it's totally fine if what the janitors approve or don't approve is completely random and the rules mean nothing, it's just up to random users to determine quality and manually flag everything, themselves." Again, I have to ask, wasn't the whole reason janitors were created in the first place so that someone would apply the rules?

post #1777027, which is by far the least defensible image, was uploaded by a janitor. The same janitor was the one who first started uploading Vivian James images, which basically means it's the janitors forcing the breaking of these rules. post #1779542, when the fact that it has no relation to anime, is not well-drawn, is not fun, and is generally not suitable for Danbooru is questioned, is defended by the janitor who approved it using the argument "it's fine if this breaks the rules and is low quality because I and others who broke the rules in the past got away with it before". This is, again, an argument explicitly invalidated by Danbooru policy.

All I'm getting from this is that none of these images deserve to be here, as the only Vivian James images that have any claim to quality that might superscede its lack of relevance the way that you can make a case for Stanley Lau are the ones by Doomfest, but that nobody actually feels like doing anything about it. The argument is, basically, that I should be the janitor, and flag everything, myself. But that, again, raises the question of why we have janitors if the average user is expected to do their job for them?

If it's poor quality and/or not drawn in anime-style then it should be deleted. But mass deleting absolutely everything related to 4chan makes no sense whatsoever. There's plenty of good art under the 4chan tag. If you hate 4chan so much that you don't want to see any of it then use a blacklist.

It's not like this is the first politically charged picture that has ever been uploaded here. I mean there's an entire tag for nazis for goodness sake, and I'm pretty sure a good number of people who browse here don't actually approve of them. Disagree with the message of a picture all you want [lord knows I have], but there's really no basis for deleting one on this site as far as I can tell.

I'd just like to reiterate (since this thread's topic seems to be bouncing back and forth) that I support revision of the
Is it directly anime related?
No?
Delete.
wording of the rules. I don't feel 4chan/memes/etc. should be hassled and/or deleted based on their subject.

I don't see how a MLP version of the Crimeran prosecutor general counts as wit or anime. MLP doesn't count as anime since its horses drawn with googly eyes, nothing animesque like avatar or uh teen titans I guess.

As for the nature of the content, I don't see why posts referencing things people find offensive (gamergate) is more rulebreaking than people uploading and approving works involving fetishist depictions of rape, murder, works with minors being potrayed sexually, works considered religiously or culturally offensive. Even Kantai collection, since it has personifications of WW2 IJN ships could fall under this. This include MC Axis, which has cheesecake depictions of various military figures and dictators, including those responsible for genocide and not being pro-american. I don't like the idea of censoring these images, since they bring attention to figures not often talked about so to me I find it valuable and interesting.

As for 4chan, I think its important for culture here. Regardless of if you like 4chan or not, it contributes a lot to the internet community. Since 4chan was created as a forum for fans of anime, there is a lot of this in relation to it. So things that represent 4chan's culture, especially since drawfag is a used tag, is fine.

Whether or not I agree with gamergate (I don't) is secondary to whether or not I like the piece of art and how it represents the view of the artist. This is a mountain out of a molehill and hope it doesn't limit freedom of expression.

The rules are more of a guideline anyways since a lot it subjective and meant to catch works that are considered objectively shit.

I defended it for much the same reasons I stated here: the rules aren't a hardline that means no works outside of it can be approved. Its meant to be a guide. Despite the ban on western art, we have things that are western art that are approved because someone liked it enough and the site continued to function without issue. Since Vivian James is pretty much animesque in her design and influence I think its acceptable.

Rather than having it be banned for all issues, this seems like the intended application of blacklisting. Take a tag often associated with subjects you dislike and blacklist it and you will not know nor care that someone uploaded stupid meme pictures.

Also if you have an issue or question about how a user does things or why a janitor said what they said I'd rather you ask them directly rather than call them out or start throwing accusations out there.

Tonda's art is on the borderline in terms of scratchiness but it isn't badly drawn. Characters are drawn consistently and there are a lot of different designs used that make it not a lazy thing just shat out. Its a short comic posted online and its well written. On top of that, it has a good amount of representation in art that shows the more popular Kantai Admirals so I think its noteworthy for that reason as well.

Please don't read this with an angry tone, just tired, by the way.

Also I think this thread would benefit from focusing one one set of issues at a time. Whether or not art from 4chan or other western internet boards focused on anime is a separate issue than works of art that meet all the rules and are just iffy on quality.

Saladofstones said:

I don't see how a MLP version of the Crimeran prosecutor general counts as wit or anime. MLP doesn't count as anime since its horses drawn with googly eyes, nothing animesque like avatar or uh teen titans I guess.

So you're saying that because something else was accepted erroneously, then it validates absolutely anything else being on the site? Again, this is exactly the sort of logic that we, as users, have always been expressly not been able to use.

You are supposed to be a janitor, you are supposed to be enforcing the rules, not talking about how the rules don't matter.

So far, I have yet to see a single word actually saying why any of these images I've linked to actually ARE acceptable, and only excuses as to why nobody else is doing anything. It's just "if it's bad, flag it yourself."

Apparently, I, as random user #264238, am now solely responsible for ensuring that every image on the whole board meets standards of quality, relation to anime, and all other supposed rules of this website. As there have been many thousands of erroneous acceptances piling up, and it's going to take a while, since I can only flag one post per day. However, if the standard is that as long as there's at least one non-anime-related image on this board, then any other can be accepted, then how do you expect the error to be corrected?

This leniency of accepting these images is exactly why I started this thread - these rules should be enforced at the janitorial level, and they aren't. This thread is to raise the topic of how best to correct the wayward course of what is and is not accepted.

Saladofstones said:

As for the nature of the content, I don't see why posts referencing things people find offensive (gamergate) is more rulebreaking than people uploading and approving works involving fetishist depictions of rape, murder, works with minors being potrayed sexually, works considered religiously or culturally offensive. Even Kantai collection, since it has personifications of WW2 IJN ships could fall under this. This include MC Axis, which has cheesecake depictions of various military figures and dictators, including those responsible for genocide and not being pro-american. I don't like the idea of censoring these images, since they bring attention to figures not often talked about so to me I find it valuable and interesting.

That is, indeed, a touchy subject.

However, I HARDLY think you can claim that there hasn't been any sort of uproar ever arising because of rape/murder/guro images on this site.

KanColle, I should say, however, at least has the sense to mostly insulate itself from criticism by making the enemies they fight "aliens" (and representations of them being American or actually just shipgirls that are "corrupted" changes from artist to artist). It's probably the fact that we won the war, but I don't find many Americans complaining about it. The jingoism is there, but not as denialist as the things that attract news attention, like the denial of "comfort girls". (Although there was one "comfort girl" image that raised some small controversy.)

MC Axis may have some controversy related to it, but it's clearly anime-related, and clearly quality artwork. Further, it's over-the-top style seems to have dulled any offense people may have taken from it. It is interesting reading for exactly the reason you say: There are some of those people I know little about, and I have the seed of something to read up upon. (A similar reason for why I'm interested in KanColle.)

However, this cannot be stressed enough: KanColle is CLEARLY anime-related, and MC Axis is as well.

The main thrust of my argument is that the relevance of 4chan to anime is so tangential that it doesn't justify itself or any of its baggage, especially when it is so easily accessible from other sites. (And these images I link to are of significantly lower quality than the artbook works of MC Axis, to the point where I have trouble seeing how you can justify this work just in terms of quality alone.)

Again, these are not arguments FOR these images in terms of their suitability in terms of quality or anime-relevance. What you are arguing is, at the fundamental level, that "other images are about the same/worse in terms of 'controversy', so these should be able to stay." That sort of argument is, again, explicitly described as invalid as an excuse when trying to justify artwork on Danbooru. These works should be able to stand on their own merits, not merely be less bad than the worst images on the site. (Otherwise, the first crap image that gets past mod queue...)

Furthermore, even when MC Axis might be controversial as a topic, it doesn't invite people to openly attack the other users the way that this topic went within a single day:

OHBGEEK4GIRE1998 said:

Sighhhh....Because I don't want this to descend into a flame war and I know that you're not going to be open to any ideas whatsoever I won't even TRY to reason with you.

However, I will say that you are so grossly misinformed and quite honestly so ignorant that I find you to be enraging as you are offensive.

Please:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate

EDUCATE yourself.

(And for the record, this person was not responding to me...)

Saladofstones said:

The rules are more of a guideline anyways since a lot it subjective and meant to catch works that are considered objectively shit.

This is exactly what I just argued we should avoid in previous posts. If you make this the standard, then, again, the only rule that matters is the rule of shitstorm. Anyone can try to get anything onto the site, and the only enforcement is the ability to get enough people angry at the subject matter to get it taken down. It functionally ensures constant drama, like the kind with Dupp Akiru or Sukedai.

Clear, consistent rules minimize the drama.

Now, I'm certainly open to rational changes to the rules if the rules, as they stand do not serve the community properly.

That's exactly why I brought up Tonda.

Saladofstones said:

Tonda's art is on the borderline in terms of scratchiness but it isn't badly drawn. Characters are drawn consistently and there are a lot of different designs used that make it not a lazy thing just shat out. Its a short comic posted online and its well written. On top of that, it has a good amount of representation in art that shows the more popular Kantai Admirals so I think its noteworthy for that reason as well.

Here, I think you misread me, because that's a part of what I am arguing.

Tonda's quality is clearly not sufficient to justify his works being here if it were just on art quality, alone. It is clear there is a standard beyond pure artistic quality of each individual image being applied when it comes to doujins/comics/pooled images.

What I am arguing is that the rules should be changed to reflect the realities of what is and is not approved if the rules as they are do not serve the userbase. This may require rules more nuanced than "only good quality work", but it's still better to have a potentially confusingly nuanced ruleset than one that is outright not applicable.

If the standard of "quality" includes not just pure visual aesthetic quality, but the quality of humor or dramatic narrative or whatever a doujin brings, just add that to the rules, and you solve the "double standard".

If you want to argue that somehow something that has Western artists drawing Western subject matter in a Western style is "anime-related", however, when the rules explicitly state they are not allowed, then you need to argue for why the rules should be changed.

Now, you do list reasons you want to give for why these 4chan images (that aren't already anime-related by their subject matter,) and I'm perfectly up for debating them, and will a little further down.

The thing is, it takes this sort of forum thread to actually call this sort of functional "rules change" out into the light.

The number of people uploading the images I am taking issue with can be counted on my fingers. There are two janitors approving these when they were uploaded by member-level users.

Should the de facto standards of Danbooru really be allowed to change by functional stealth without debate by the userbase, or should we use these forums to discuss these changes? You may feel it is an "accusation", but these forums should be for the discussion of changes to the guidelines and standards of Danbooru. I'm not sure everyone wants these rules changed.

Saladofstones said:

As for 4chan, I think its important for culture here. Regardless of if you like 4chan or not, it contributes a lot to the internet community. Since 4chan was created as a forum for fans of anime, there is a lot of this in relation to it. So things that represent 4chan's culture, especially since drawfag is a used tag, is fine.

I'll leave the "drawfag" tag for a little later, but for now...

I don't know what brings you to Danbooru in the first place, but I certainly came and continue to come here for the access to works which I otherwise wouldn't have access. Pixiv tags are not as easy to navigate as the Danbooru ones in Romanji, and I certainly find the soft translations useful in reading all the doujins and webcomics I follow here.

This, to me, is why the "Anime related" concept makes sense for Danbooru. It's reposting things I otherwise couldn't access.

I can access a lot of other things that are "related to Internet culture" without Danbooru. Not "anime culture", "Internet culture". There is a lot of things that are relevant to the "culture" of the denizens of the Internet, like, say, Western games. Danbooru, however, (appropriately) does not allow for even high-quality artwork examples of artwork from Western games by Western artists in a Western art style. (With plenty of "animeification" images of Mass Effect and the like accepted.)

You can easily find that elsewhere.

Cosplaying is also something the rules disallow, (at least de jure) and that's certainly a LOT more anime-related than whether or not 4chan's "Internet culture" makes it "anime-related".

The rules even explicitly state how you can go to 3dbooru, meanwhile, to find those cosplay images if you are looking for them, however.

There is overlap, yes, when there's a Western artist drawing anime-related subject matter, but it's at least an understandable and established overlap the rules allow for.

The idea that anything 4chan-related is somehow automatically anime-related seems an ill-defined argument. There IS plenty of 4chan-related material that is anime-related; They talk about and draw anime-related topics all the time. However, it seems more an act of laxness in the rules and a general favor of a small handful of users towards 4chan to automatically assume this means ALL material is anime related.

There are also quite a few DeviantArt users that post anime-style drawings, but we hardly assume anyone who posts on DeviantArt is automatically posting something worth putting on Danbooru. (Again, before even getting to quality issues - and I have issues with the quality of several things with a 4chan tag quite separate from their anime-relatedness.)

Simply put, I don't see why there is reason to change the standard that Western artists producing Western-style artwork about Western subject matters should change just because 4chan somehow was involved in it.

Saladofstones said:
Rather than having it be banned for all issues, this seems like the intended application of blacklisting. Take a tag often associated with subjects you dislike and blacklist it and you will not know nor care that someone uploaded stupid meme pictures.

The problem here is you are conflating two issues between which I am at least attempting to draw draw a clear distinction.

I am not calling for the banning of everything with a 4chan tag. I am stating that the "anime related" rules are not being enforced in spite of the rules being fairly clear in this manner:

From the upload guidelines:

  • Generally Accepted

* Anime-style illustrations.

  • Generally Rejected

* Most Photography.
* Western style illustrations (commonly known outside Danbooru as 'cartoons' or 'comics').

And again, the first reason listed as a reason to flag is "not anime related".

An image tagged 4chan when it has Kyubey at the computer or an image by "drawfag" whose subject matter is Yoshika is perfectly compliant with the rules, as it is anime-related.

Updated

Toks said:

If it's poor quality and/or not drawn in anime-style then it should be deleted. But mass deleting absolutely everything related to 4chan makes no sense whatsoever. There's plenty of good art under the 4chan tag. If you hate 4chan so much that you don't want to see any of it then use a blacklist.

Just to make myself clear, I am not arguing everything 4chan should go. Anime-related images that have something to do with 4chan are compliant with the rules.

I am arguing that something is not "anime-related" just because it has relation to 4chan. This is the claim functionally being made by Saladofstones and, implicitly, others.

Vivian James, as an example, is a Western subject matter, drawn in Western art style by Western artists. These are not anime-related, and therefore not compliant with the rules.

Kikimaru said:

Manga & anime originated from a Western style.

Current Western cartoons are being clearly influenced by Japanese anime style.

Please stop trying to see everything as East-or-West.

Toks said:

The subject and artist being western doesn't determine whether an image is suited to the site, the art does.

The rules of Danbooru explicitly state we are to judge things based on whether they are "anime-style" or not. This has been one of the longest-standing and most core definitions of what sort of art goes into Danbooru.

There's something a little wrong about a couple people suddenly declaring these most basic rules don't apply to them anymore and upending the basic definition of what art goes into here...

Once again, the rules:

From the upload guidelines:

  • Generally Accepted

* Anime-style illustrations.

  • Generally Rejected

* Western style illustrations (commonly known outside Danbooru as 'cartoons' or 'comics').

A quick link if you need to reread them

===

Toks said:

There are a number of anime-style images under vivian_james. The one you linked is not, but that doesn't affect the other images.

Then the legitimately quality and legitimately anime-related ones can stay... but again, that eliminates most of those images.

NWSiaCB said:

Just to make myself clear, I am not arguing everything 4chan should go. Anime-related images that have something to do with 4chan are compliant with the rules.

I am arguing that something is not "anime-related" just because it has relation to 4chan. This is the claim functionally being made by Saladofstones and, implicitly, others.

Vivian James, as an example, is a Western subject matter, drawn in Western art style by Western artists. These are not anime-related, and therefore not compliant with the rules.

You are using dramatic language in the posts you find offensive, calling it propaganda and what not.

To me, wanting to delete images on this reason is bad enough alone. Something can be propaganda and have value of art, and thus it can belong here on danbooru. An image that has three japanese characters and the word gamergate qualifies as both japanese media and not as propaganda.

This is also, I remind you, an internet website managed by people who do it for free. This isn't a company database where everything has strict guidelines and specific goals. We collect things we like. This would impose a strict standard on subject matter on the basis of the context of the content rather than anything about the content itself.

This is weird since you have people who are moderators, janitors or builders who say one thing and you are contradicting them essentially telling them they are following the rules the wrong way.

but I'm not really swayed by the argument that there is a need to censor images based on content or that allowing things related to 4chan or other western things are causing such an issue that we need to change the rules in order to fix it.

Again, blacklisting it since it seems like its an issue of your personal preferences rather than something inherent with the site.

NWSiaCB said:
Except that there keep being comments where people have issues with these 4chan memes being brought onto Danbooru...

For example: post #1774063

evazion said:

God, please don't get that Zoe Quinn drama started in Danbooru of all places.

So I'm late to this thread, but just to clarify: I intended that as a preemptive warning against shitposting in the comments, since the previous commenter was posting 4chan propaganda. I didn't mean that the image itself shouldn't be here.

Saladofstones said:

You are using dramatic language in the posts you find offensive, calling it propaganda and what not.

To me, wanting to delete images on this reason is bad enough alone. Something can be propaganda and have value of art, and thus it can belong here on danbooru. An image that has three japanese characters and the word gamergate qualifies as both japanese media and not as propaganda.

This is also, I remind you, an internet website managed by people who do it for free. This isn't a company database where everything has strict guidelines and specific goals. We collect things we like. This would impose a strict standard on subject matter on the basis of the context of the content rather than anything about the content itself.

This is weird since you have people who are moderators, janitors or builders who say one thing and you are contradicting them essentially telling them they are following the rules the wrong way.

but I'm not really swayed by the argument that there is a need to censor images based on content or that allowing things related to 4chan or other western things are causing such an issue that we need to change the rules in order to fix it.

Again, blacklisting it since it seems like its an issue of your personal preferences rather than something inherent with the site.

I find the notion that the characters in that image are the characters they were tagged to be a little dubious to begin with, as I wouldn't recognize them without them being tagged as such. Again, if you ignore the content and try to judge this on pure aesthetics, I don't think it stands on quality grounds alone. They aren't drawn in anime style, and have a very rough style.

However, to go back to my main argument, it is a continuing complaint of both myself and others that the rules are applied so inconsistently as to make them, at best, a disposable excuse for an action a janitor or moderator takes. While, yes, artwork is subjective, at the bare minimum, if you are going to apply different standards to different works, they should be reflected in the rules so that the guidelines have some actual meaning. As it stands, the moderation queue seems more crapshoot than quality assurance, a matter of who happened to be at the wheel on a given day, since the rules are being bent so severely that it's just the tastes of the individual at play. (I would point to the numerous complaints about favoritism towards Touhou, as an example.)

Again, I think it would be good for Danbooru as a whole to just outright state that there are lower pure aesthetic artwork standards for doujins/webcomics (and that doujins/webcomics aren't just conditionally accepted, as they make up a serious chunk of the reason people visit the site,) since the rules as stated and the actions of the janitors should actually agree, if only not to confuse the users. The standards of what is and is not acceptable seem to be like quicksand; I once saw someone flag a post for bad proportions for having breasts twice as large as someone's head, only to have the rule suddenly changed to being three times a person's head after it was flagged so the image could be kept. (Although at least that change was written into the rules so that it could be seen from then on...) In this thread, there were others saying similar things, that the standards keep changing.

If the only standard becomes one of Eternal September, where there aren't standards, just who can make life so unpleasant for the other side that they give up, then it encourages a bad community. (In fact, that's pretty much the primary reason 4chan's community is so toxic.) By that standard, all it takes for Danbooru to change into a guro or furry website is a couple janitors determined to see it happen. (And say that people can just blacklist the guro...) Maybe you can't all agree to hard-and-fast rules, but the rules should have SOME weight and guidance on what is or isn't accepted.

If the rules don't work in practice, then the rules should be reworked to meet the practice. I don't think GamerGate is anime-related or appropriate for Danbooru, but if that's the direction Danbooru's standards are moving, at least reflect it in the rules.

But I am just a user. I can only assume that this is a result of a difference of opinion between janitors and moderators, where rules are being interpreted differently by different people, and if so, try to wave my hands and get attention to the topic, such that it doesn't just slip through the cracks unnoticed. Maybe even change a mind with my argument, and convince someone that letting things like GamerGate in is only going to lead to even more drama down the road. I don't get to see whatever backroom discussions go on about what does or does not set the standard or who passed over one image or another or denied a flag.

If it really IS the consensus of the moderators that they don't want to be strictly anime-related anymore, trying to start a topic or flag something won't accomplish a thing, but at the very least, it would be nice if you were to at least update the guidelines to actually reflect what the actual standards are.

Updated

NWSiaCB said:

I find the notion that the characters in that image are the characters they were tagged to be a little dubious to begin with, as I wouldn't recognize them without them being tagged as such. Again, if you ignore the content and try to judge this on pure aesthetics, I don't think it stands on quality grounds alone. They aren't drawn in anime style, and have a very rough style.

Are you referring to post #1822339? I found it quite clear who these women are cosplaying, and tbh you'd have to be a noob to not see it.
And again with the vague "not in anime style" argument - there is NO one, true "anime style"!

However, to go back to my main argument, it is a continuing complaint of both myself and others that the rules are applied so inconsistently as to make them, at best, a disposable excuse for an action a janitor or moderator takes. While, yes, artwork is subjective, at the bare minimum, if you are going to apply different standards to different works, they should be reflected in the rules so that the guidelines have some actual meaning. As it stands, the moderation queue seems more crapshoot than quality assurance, a matter of who happened to be at the wheel on a given day, since the rules are being bent so severely that it's just the tastes of the individual at play. (I would point to the numerous complaints about favoritism towards Touhou, as an example.)

There is no favouritism towards Touhou, that is a joke.
If you looked at the actual stats, you'd see that Touhou is just super popular with ARTISTS to draw.

Again, I think it would be good for Danbooru as a whole to just outright state that there are lower pure aesthetic artwork standards for doujins/webcomics (and that doujins/webcomics aren't just conditionally accepted, as they make up a serious chunk of the reason people visit the site,) since the rules as stated and the actions of the janitors should actually agree, if only not to confuse the users. The standards of what is and is not acceptable seem to be like quicksand; I once saw someone flag a post for bad proportions for having breasts twice as large as someone's head, only to have the rule suddenly changed to being three times a person's head after it was flagged so the image could be kept. (Although at least that change was written into the rules so that it could be seen from then on...) In this thread, there were others saying similar things, that the standards keep changing.

It's hard to understand, but some of the rules are just poorly worded and were created to prevent an influx of shit art. If you want to see what I mean, visit Gelbooru where ANYTHING Japanese stays.

If the only standard becomes one of Eternal September, where there aren't standards, just who can make life so unpleasant for the other side that they give up, then it encourages a bad community. (In fact, that's pretty much the primary reason 4chan's community is so toxic.) By that standard, all it takes for Danbooru to change into a guro or furry website is a couple janitors determined to see it happen. (And say that people can just blacklist the guro...) Maybe you can't all agree to hard-and-fast rules, but the rules should have SOME weight and guidance on what is or isn't accepted.

What the fuck is "Eternal September"? Last I checked, we're nearing the end of October.

If the rules don't work in practice, then the rules should be reworked to meet the practice. I don't think GamerGate is anime-related or appropriate for Danbooru, but if that's the direction Danbooru's standards are moving, at least reflect it in the rules.

Danbooru lies at an intersection of anime and gamer culture. The artwork contained therein has always reflected this.

But I am just a user. I can only assume that this is a result of a difference of opinion between janitors and moderators, where rules are being interpreted differently by different people, and if so, try to wave my hands and get attention to the topic, such that it doesn't just slip through the cracks unnoticed. Maybe even change a mind with my argument, and convince someone that letting things like GamerGate in is only going to lead to even more drama down the road. I don't get to see whatever backroom discussions go on about what does or does not set the standard or who passed over one image or another or denied a flag.

You're creating drama and conspiracy where there is none.
It's literally a case of "these people think these images are good enough to stay, and sometimes they miss stuff."

If it really IS the consensus of the moderators that they don't want to be strictly anime-related anymore, trying to start a topic or flag something won't accomplish a thing, but at the very least, it would be nice if you were to at least update the guidelines to actually reflect what the actual standards are.

If you include video game artwork/fanworks, then Danbooru hasn't been "anime" since... well, forever.

My advice to you:
Take a short breather from Danbooru, and lurk moar.

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