Anime-relatedness of 4chan memes on Danbooru

Revising this to make the nature of my argument less confusing to others:

The rules of the Danbooru upload guide states that we should only upload images that are "anime-related" or in "anime-style". We have quality standards, but we also (appropriately) delete works that are Western art styles by Western artists depicting Western subjects even when they are perfectly good quality. This is apparently considered important enough a rule for "Not anime related" to be the first listed reason for why you should flag a post. We similarly have a "no photography" rule and rules against furry and extreme guro artwork, regardless of quality.

These rules, however, seem to be broken with greater and greater regularity, while being approved by some specific janitors when the subject matter is (quite separate from any actual anime-related subject matter or art style) 4chan. The claim being made here is that 4chan is "Internet culture", and that is therefore the same thing as "anime related", regardless of if it is Western art style by a Western artist depicting Western subjects.

This is, functionally, a stealth re-writing of the de facto standards of Danbooru to make 4chan works acceptable regardless of whether they have any actual anime relevance (or acceptable quality) simply because specific janitors want to push for 4chan memes to be considered "anime related".

This thread is NOT about "deleting all 4chan images", it is about how images that have no anime relevance are being approved (or even uploaded by janitors) that are not anime related and significantly below quality standards.

This thread IS about trying to get a debate going about whether these anime-relatedness standards should be enforced by the janitors on this site.

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Original post:

As you should know, Danbooru is a site for images that are "anime-related". Most of the artwork on this site comes from Japanese artists, largely from places like Pixiv. We do get a decent amount of Western artists drawing images that are about anime characters, and that's fine, too, of course, as are "animeficiation" of Western copyrights.

Recently, however, there's been a creeping wave of things that are 4chan memes that are related to anime only in the sense that the (Western) artists are at best vaguely "anime-influenced" in the way they draw. Do we really need a memetic character created to 'prove 4chan isn't sexist' complaining about 4chan as an image here? (Note that this character isn't particularly drawn in an anime-like fashion.) Or how about a character that was invented as a "prank" to try to convince Africans that Western doctors were witches spreading ebola to kill off black people? (Not to mention the image doesn't even pass as quality and it seems the artist's only idea of what "anime" means is "really big eyes"...) Now we have an image that's outright 4chan political advertisement on here. Granted, that last one at least hypothetically has something to do with anime-related things, but does Danbooru really have to become another branch of 4chan's /pol/ for so flimsy a reason? (I don't particularly see how they even resemble the characters they are tagged as being, although that may have something to do with the overall poor quality of the art...)

Besides that stuff, we have other images that just flat have nothing to do with anything but 4chan memes. To grab a couple really quickly for examples:
post #1039960
post #1183152

Can someone explain to me why this belongs here? If I wanted to put up with 4chan's shit, I'd go to 4chan or any of the multitude of sites that archives the things they produce. There isn't any dearth of access to the art they produce from other avenues.

This may seem like hairsplitting, but all GG related topics are cause for instant ban/thread deletion on 4chan now. As for if the images should be allowed here, I agree that nigh-propagandic images like the #GamerGate ones probably don't belong here, but if others follow guidelines, I don't see the harm. And I know I don't need to tell you to blacklist things.

SindriAndBale said:

This may seem like hairsplitting, but all GG related topics are cause for instant ban/thread deletion on 4chan now. As for if the images should be allowed here, I agree that nigh-propagandic images like the #GamerGate ones probably don't belong here, but if others follow guidelines, I don't see the harm. And I know I don't need to tell you to blacklist things.

It's a combination of the fact that the rules should simply be enforced when things are obviously not in the domain of what should be on Danbooru in the first place, and that there are actual things that have tags like 4chan that are still fine. As an example, a Kyuubey on 4chan image is fine, at least so far as my judgment goes. It is, at least, an anime-related meme.

(Besides that, the "#GamersGate" image doesn't even have a 4chan or drawfag tag, nor do any of the Ebola-chan images, so blacklisting wouldn't catch those...)

I think the images was approved purely because they're memetic and fun to look at, like: Oh, I know about this! Infamous current event and stuff. Danbooru users (most of the time) know better than to start any war that don't have anything to do with us here, on this site.

I agree that they're bad, and shouldn't even be here, and that they should all be deleted before anyone come up with any bad idea to start a fire here. But just having a couple of memetic images about current event can hardly turn Danbooru into "another branch of 4chan's /pol/". So far, nobody having any issues about them, maybe they just don't care, maybe they don't even know about all that 4chan shits, maybe they don't even know what 4chan is!
Heck, I only even know about the whole GG incident like half-an-hour ago, after seeing that image.
As long as nobody bring it up, everything will just gonna be A-okay. Though, I still think we should delete all of 4chan related images from Danbooru, for precaution.

Stan-Miller said:

So far, nobody having any issues about them, maybe they just don't care, maybe they don't even know about all that 4chan shits, maybe they don't even know what 4chan is!

Except that there keep being comments where people have issues with these 4chan memes being brought onto Danbooru...

For example: post #1774063

evazion said:

God, please don't get that Zoe Quinn drama started in Danbooru of all places.

Not to mention, I started this thread in direct response to people taking issue with one of these images. If "nobody having any issues", then what's this thread but someone having issues with this?

If the images are drawn in an anime-style/related to the anime-sphere of things (with some exceptions) and they're of good quality, the subject matter usually has little weight on whether it should be here or not. The few subject matters that do have weight are those that either inherently have issues on quality or have caused problems (arguments, bad community, etc). Things like GamerGate can cause problems, but until it actually is shown to be a problem, I don't exactly see why it is a subject matter that needs to be banned at this point in time.

I'm not too keen on the idea of pre-emptively banning something because it could "potentially" be an issue. Doing such things would open the door for requests of various other things to be banned to prevent them from causing potential problems that may not turn up at all. This then just becomes a censorship of topics, and that's another issue I'm not too keen on agreeing to.

As for why some of that 4chan stuff should be allowed, it is because 4chan does have (at least imo) indirect ties to anime due to their own large community on anime. Having a blanket ban on stuff related to them imo isn't really any different than proposing a blanket ban on 2ch or similar site that has generated/influenced material that has ended up here.

Oh, I see. Well, most of them are turned into "just for laugh" images once they uploaded here, anyway. Nothing serious had happened yet, because I THINK Danbooru users know better than to drag them problems here, and risk starting various long debate or argument about things that got nothing to do with them!

As long as NOBODY, with issues or no, starts anything, things should be fine.

The problem with that sort of argument is that,

1: Rules that are not enforced are just words. If there is no consistency of standards, then you have people uploading any random crap just to see what sticks... UNTIL you get someone throwing a fit over it.

2: If the only thing that determines whether any rules (real or imagined) DO get enforced is whether or not a handful of complainers whine loud enough or start enough fights, then what you are implicitly encouraging is whining as loudly as possible and starting all the fights you can to ensure there IS a bad community.

In that vein, I recall you, Stan-Miller, specifically running into problems with that only a couple weeks ago with the things you were uploading from Dupp Akiru. (See comments in post #1813917) Likewise, I've seen people go on mini-crusades against everything an artist has done because that artist drew a guro work that was put up, and succeeded in pulling everything else that artist did just because they had numbers and noise on their side. (Sukedai, for the record. Not that I'm a particular fan of the... very strange fetishes the artist had, but that the reasons used for purging the artwork the artist had made were spurious and abusive of the rules.)

If this is the standard you set, then it just means that you encourage people to fly off the handle at everything because the loudest screamer wins. Saying "it's not a problem yet" is like saying "it's only a little fire, let's only try to put it out after the kitchen is entirely in flames." If this isn't curbed, it will just keep going until it IS a big enough problem. Even-handed, objectively enforced rules spare people the drama.

Again, I'm not opposed to anything relating to 4chan, but things that are clearly Western artists making Western memes using Western-style art, which is clearly against the rules should not be accepted, as the rules state.

All that is still based on breaking a rule, however, as far as I know no such rule exists. What you're really asking for is to create a rule saying "no memes allowed." Personally, I feel it should be dealt with on the user side. If someone starts having a tantrum over something that fits the quality guidelines, they need to either be corrected or removed, not the image. If the images aren't blacklist-capable, then a tag needs to be created or an existing one needs to be properly applied.

NWSiaCB said:

Likewise, I've seen people go on mini-crusades against everything an artist has done because that artist drew a guro work that was put up, and succeeded in pulling everything else that artist did just because they had numbers and noise on their side. (Sukedai, for the record. Not that I'm a particular fan of the... very strange fetishes the artist had, but that the reasons used for purging the artwork the artist had made were spurious and abusive of the rules.)

The few times I've seen that happen it was less a case that the person succeeded in some kind of "holy war" but rather that the images weren't really of sufficient quality to begin with regardless of how little or much of a dickbag the flagger was in the reason box. Though in clicking through your example I don't see how "terrible art" and "disgusting without enough quality to redeem it" are abusive of the rules.

NWSiaCB said:

Again, I'm not opposed to anything relating to 4chan, but things that are clearly Western artists making Western memes using Western-style art, which is clearly against the rules should not be accepted, as the rules state.

Western artists can make images about Western subjects all they like, so long as it's in an anime style or high-quality enough (looking at you, Stanley Lau). If it's junk or in the form of a Looney Tunes cartoon, go ahead and flag it.

NWSiaCB said:

In that vein, I recall you, Stan-Miller, specifically running into problems with that only a couple weeks ago with the things you were uploading from Dupp Akiru. (See comments in post #1813917)

Ouch, you don't need to remind me of that. Them posts got deleted because of "questionable body parts and proportion that was purposely drawn by the artist in order to make the characters look cartoon-ish".

From my experience, crusades are always bad, no matter how noble their cause...

Anyway, I don't know what to say next or who to agree with so I'll just... stop here. (I'm a poor debater)

OOZ662 said:

All that is still based on breaking a rule, however, as far as I know no such rule exists. What you're really asking for is to create a rule saying "no memes allowed." Personally, I feel it should be dealt with on the user side. If someone starts having a tantrum over something that fits the quality guidelines, they need to either be corrected or removed, not the image. If the images aren't blacklist-capable, then a tag needs to be created or an existing one needs to be properly applied.

It isn't "no memes allowed", it's that the rules are, to quote the upload guide, "Danbooru is an Anime Art Gallery first, and a high-quality gallery second." "Not anime related" is the first reason listed under "common reasons for flagging a post" if you hit the "flag" button. Many of these images aren't anime in any way. They're western memes drawn by western artists in a western style.

To just run through the Vivian James stuff for quick examples, take post #1774985, post #1788073, and post #1775356 as examples, if these are anime-style drawings, then the phrase "anime-style drawings" is stretched so thin as to have no meaning.

Not that there isn't a lot of this that doesn't merit flagging on poor quality grounds alone... post #1777027 in particular is "5 minutes in MS Paint" quality.

And again, I'd have no particular problem with this stuff if it has something to do with anime, but the only Vivian James image I see with anything anime-related in it was post #1775328. (And even then, it's drawn in a Western style, and not even particularly well...) The #GameGate image goes even further, and drags the whole site into a shitstorm that even 4chan's own moderators want nothing to do with.

Honestly I feel danbooru as a site has ascended beyond the "anime-style" rule but that's just me. anyway the removal of all memes seems excessive, limiting it to just images that cause shit should be enough. Also the Vivian James images seem standalone without drawing attention to the drama surrounding it so I think those are OK on that front.

iori98 said:

Honestly I feel danbooru as a site has ascended beyond the "anime-style" rule but that's just me. anyway the removal of all memes seems excessive, limiting it to just images that cause shit should be enough. Also the Vivian James images seem standalone without drawing attention to the drama surrounding it so I think those are OK on that front.

If that's the case, then why is "not anime related" not only in the rules, but also the first reason given for why you should flag an image?

Also, once again, I have never said, nor am I advocating "removal of all memes". I am saying that the "not anime related" rule is clearly not being enforced as it should be. There are plenty of "anime-related" memes that pretty much everyone here is perfectly content with. For that matter, I'd be fine with Western/4chan memes when that art has something to do with anime.

However, these images I'm pointing to are, once again, Western artists drawing Western memes with a Western art style.

NWSiaCB said:

If that's the case, then why is "not anime related" not only in the rules, but also the first reason given for why you should flag an image?

Also, once again, I have never said, nor am I advocating "removal of all memes". I am saying that the "not anime related" rule is clearly not being enforced as it should be. There are plenty of "anime-related" memes (really, Japanese memes, but this imprecise terminology isn't of my choosing...) that pretty much everyone here is perfectly content with. For that matter, I'd be fine with Western/4chan memes that had something to do with anime.

However, these images I'm pointing to are, once again, Western artists drawing Western memes with a Western art style.

Rules were made a long time ago during the time since then stuff has changed art progressed, people's sensitivity have changed, etc and etc. Art wise if its good then danbooru will host it, meme wise if it causes shit delete it, its as simple as that.

A bit old, but somewhat related thread: topic #9803.

To go back to this for a second...

OOZ662 said:

Western artists can make images about Western subjects all they like, so long as it's in an anime style or high-quality enough (looking at you, Stanley Lau). If it's junk or in the form of a Looney Tunes cartoon, go ahead and flag it.

(And I'll just point out there's something a little odd about someone the wiki says is from Singapore being considered "Western", but that's neither here nor there...)

Thing is, just looking at the first images by that artist to pop up, (besides the Samus one, which is clearly "anime"-related,) I find post #1813489, which is just post #1751383 re-posted. The first time it was posted, it was deleted because it was not approved... and as I think we can both agree, it's probably not for lack of artistic quality.

There's no reason given, but if it was deleted for lack of anime-relation the first time, but not deleted the second time it was posted, then doesn't that just prove the problem of how inconsistently the rules are being applied, here, when the same image will be approved if it was deleted before?

Last time I brought up a rule ("grandfather clause," don't flag really old posts regardless of quality) I was told that we didn't really follow that rule and that it was obsolete. I left confused about the situation and it was still weeks (maybe months) before it was actually removed.

Perhaps it's time for a rewording of the rule, since it contradicts itself in two sentences in a row. Plus it's obviously not being hard-line enforced the way it's worded, and I don't think it should be; the spirit of the site seems to have changed since that was set in place. Problem is coming up with something that isn't vague or easy to bypass or manipulate.

EDIT: Fun when three new posts happen while you're composing.

NWSiaCB said:

(And I'll just point out there's something a little odd about someone the wiki says is from Singapore being considered "Western", but that's neither here nor there...)

Figured you'd misunderstand that, but I couldn't think of how to compound it properly. I meant that his style is Western, not that he is.

NWSiaCB said:

There's no reason given, but if it was deleted for lack of anime-relation the first time, but not deleted the second time it was posted, then doesn't that just prove the problem of how inconsistently the rules are being applied, here, when the same image will be approved if it was deleted before?

Your point stands, but do remember that there are humans manning the modqueue. Not every single little thing works perfectly in such a system regardless of how strictly you outline the rules. We had a huge pile of posts from a long-standing pool fall through the modqueue that took days to get reinstate not too long ago.

iori98 said:

meme wise if it causes shit delete it, its as simple as that.

The problem I have with that being the standard is that, again, that just rewards people for causing shit. If you can get more people to cause shit on your side, your side wins, regardless of whatever standards Danbooru is supposed to have.

It is also self-perpetuating. There's a reason there's so much Touhou stuff that doesn't get deleted when it has poor quality, and that's because, since there is a lot of Touhou stuff here, people come to Danbooru that like Touhou. Then, they want all their images uploaded, and throw up a big stink when they don't. Hence, you wind up with crap quality Touhou images getting approved, but good quality images from other copyrights being neglected and deleted. Then, the people who liked those other images leave in disgust, letting the people who were pushing for the crap quality stuff swell in numbers, and have even more sway because they cause more shit when they don't get their way.

It's an Eternal September situation.

The rules SHOULD exist to prevent that sort of thing. The better artwork and the uploads that follow guidelines SHOULD prevail, or else there's no point in having guidelines at all, and every single question of what should or should not be allowed on the site needs to be adjudicated with an insult-fest like, again, what happened with Dupp Akiru's images because the uploader "wanted to see if it would stick".

iori98 said:

meme wise if it causes shit delete it, its as simple as that.

Publicly flagging things "causes shit." To quote myself, if it wasn't drawn by a 12 year old in MSPaint and you flag it, complaining and likely a fight is/are going to start. I have no suggestions on how to rectify that.

OOZ662 said:

Last time I brought up a rule ("grandfather clause," don't flag really old posts regardless of quality) I was told that we didn't really follow that rule and that it was obsolete. I left confused about the situation and it was still weeks (maybe months) before it was actually removed.

Perhaps it's time for a rewording of the rule, since it contradicts itself in two sentences in a row. Plus it's obviously not being hard-line enforced the way it's worded, and I don't think it should be; the spirit of the site seems to have changed since that was set in place. Problem is coming up with something that isn't vague or easy to bypass or manipulate.

EDIT: Fun when three new posts happen while you're composing.

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Your point stands, but do remember that there are humans manning the modqueue. Not every single little thing works perfectly in such a system regardless of how strictly you outline the rules. We had a huge pile of posts from a long-standing pool fall through the modqueue that took days to get reinstate not too long ago.

Yeah, just had a few pop up for me, too... and I was just checking it before heading to sleep...

If this winds up causing a changing in the rules to something that will actually be enforced, that's acceptable. That's what the forum is for, anyway, and why I came to the forum to argue this point.

(And for that matter, I think there should be other rules clarified. We clearly have a double-standard for quality when there is an image that is a comic involved. Warugaki (sk-ii) in particular has dramatic shifts in art quality from image to image, but you rarely see problems with deletion of one single image in a doujin because the art quality was much rougher in one part than the next. It's even generally accepted that "part of a pool" is a reason to appeal. Tonda has, frankly, terrible artwork in his comics, but they're appreciated for their humor, regardless. It raises up subjective questions of how much quality of humor or drama outweighs poor quality of art, but at least having it in the rules somewhere is an improvement over it being purely implicit.)

However, I do think there's a definite laxness going on with many of these images. Again this is just not up to quality standards, and we have this 'ur a fagget' image being defended by a janitor, of all things, using the reasoning of "other things got accepted and they aren't quality or anime-related, either," which was, last time I checked, explicitly not allowed as a reason for approval as a way for janitors to stop getting people to second-guess their decisions.

Again, this goes back to the standards being so loose that you see people post more and more questionable things just to see if it flies until there's finally a straw that breaks some camel's back and causes an uproar, like the Dupp Akiru thing. If the standard apparently is "everything gets approved until non-janitors throw a fit about it and get it deleted," then what's the point of having janitors at all?