And this is the forum post trying to decide the common way to translate 改二. Being a translator myself, I'm always against not translating a word that's fully translatable just because fans couldn't agree on a translation. I mean, sure they do mostly call it kai ni as per the wiki, but how many of them would not be able to understand that "Mk. II" or "second remodel" would mean the same thing? It's not like they even use original language names like kaiso and kindaikakaishu either.
Wouldn't "second remodel" be "Mk. III"? I mean, the base model is Mk. I, right?
(Improved Mk. II is a different matter, but that's sort of a mouthful.)
One option would be to use have one general tag, like second_remodel_(kantai_collection), that could be applied to any character. I think I would prefer to just have a new tag for each character, though (as there's bound to be many examples of remodeled characters mixed in with non-remodeled characters). And they should be character tag type, definitely not general tags (this is how "transformed" characters have always worked).
Which way are we leaning on the tag name structure? I want to go ahead and start tagging the noticeable ones.
One option would be to use have one general tag, like second_remodel_(kantai_collection), that could be applied to any character. I think I would prefer to just have a new tag for each character, though (as there's bound to be many examples of remodeled characters mixed in with non-remodeled characters). And they should be character tag type, definitely not general tags (this is how "transformed" characters have always worked).
Which way are we leaning on the tag name structure? I want to go ahead and start tagging the noticeable ones.
Again, I'm not sure why it's necessary when most shipgirl kais are visually indistinct enough that you can't even tell. Most kais are simply identical. Even the ones that are different are mostly different in their pose or what gear they carry when most art doesn't show their gear.
Even girls that are different are different in some way that a tag already conveys the difference; Ryuujou's Kai Ni is different pretty much only in that she wears a magatama and her coat is fancier. Ushio's Kai Ni is just a headband. It's just creating a tag for something you can already search for with other tags.
Also, I'd personally prefer it if we shied away from tags that are unnecessarily long. Autocomplete can't always be used, and tags that require multiple underscores and parenthesis when there's nothing we'd need to actually disambiguate the terms from is just wasting the time of any tagger that would actually use them.
One option would be to use have one general tag, like second_remodel_(kantai_collection), that could be applied to any character. I think I would prefer to just have a new tag for each character, though (as there's bound to be many examples of remodeled characters mixed in with non-remodeled characters). And they should be character tag type, definitely not general tags (this is how "transformed" characters have always worked).
Which way are we leaning on the tag name structure? I want to go ahead and start tagging the noticeable ones.
The problem is if a first remodel of one ship and the second remodel of another ship appear in the same image, I considered the same thing already. The question is if that will happen often enough to warrant individual tags.
I'd support the use of a tag like second_remodel_(kantai_collection), even if only as a stopgap measure until things get hammered out. It'd reduce transition time if we do go with individual character tags, since all the visualls will be under at least one go to tag, instead of individual searches of each character. The tag would also provide an encompassing tag for any of theses character that are visually different from their base form, which on its own I'd think would be useful in its own way. The tag idea isn't all that different from the current vocaloid_append tag.
NWSiaCB said:
Again, I'm not sure why it's necessary when most shipgirl kais are visually indistinct enough that you can't even tell. Most kais are simply identical. Even the ones that are different are mostly different in their pose or what gear they carry when most art doesn't show their gear.
Even girls that are different are different in some way that a tag already conveys the difference; Ryuujou's Kai Ni is different pretty much only in that she wears a magatama and her coat is fancier. Ushio's Kai Ni is just a headband. It's just creating a tag for something you can already search for with other tags.
Also, I'd personally prefer it if we shied away from tags that are unnecessarily long. Autocomplete can't always be used, and tags that require multiple underscores and parenthesis when there's nothing we'd need to actually disambiguate the terms from is just wasting the time of any tagger that would actually use them.
The ones that aren't visually distinct won't get tagged, but for the ones that are distinct the new tag or tags would be useful. Particularly the single catchall tag approach would avoid users having to perform a ton of rather obnoxious <item/thing> +<character> searches for each individual character. It's a tag to make things easier.
As for the use of long names, that's really more an issue of whether a shortcut is needed, something we haven't done in awhile due to autocomplete having been added.
Well my point is that second_remodel_(kantai_collection) is just misleading since we have a third remodel here, and I'm sure we will have more eventually.
The ones that aren't visually distinct won't get tagged, but for the ones that are distinct the new tag or tags would be useful. Particularly the single catchall tag approach would avoid users having to perform a ton of rather obnoxious <item/thing> +<character> searches for each individual character. It's a tag to make things easier.
A single catchall tag would still require <catchall tag> + <character> search, so that doesn't actually solve that problem.
Why do we need a tag for a kai ni character that isn't visually distinct from their un-remodeled form? Again, if I think back on Kouji's series I can't even remember whether the Kongous there were supposed to be Kai Ni or not, and they don't wear their gear so you can't visually tell. If that's the case, what's it even matter, since you are supposed to be tagging what you can see, not what you know...
I support the catch-all tag, if only to get something done. One caveat though: Don't tag it on named remodels, such as Ro-500, Verniy, Ryuuhou, etc. Doing so would lower the utility of the tag with noise when the point of the tag is to catch remodels that keep the same names.
A single catchall tag would still require <catchall tag> + <character> search, so that doesn't actually solve that problem.
Why do we need a tag for a kai ni character that isn't visually distinct from their un-remodeled form? Again, if I think back on Kouji's series I can't even remember whether the Kongous there were supposed to be Kai Ni or not, and they don't wear their gear so you can't visually tell. If that's the case, what's it even matter, since you are supposed to be tagging what you can see, not what you know...
Not sure how you can't see the utility of having a catchall +character instead of having to know every single specific distinctive item(s) for every single character to use with a character tag that separates the versions.
If the character can't be differentiated, it won't get tagged. I don't know why this needs to be repeated.
I support the catch-all tag, if only to get something done. One caveat though: Don't tag it on named remodels, such as Ro-500, Verniy, Ryuuhou, etc. Doing so would lower the utility of the tag with noise when the point of the tag is to catch remodels that keep the same names.
After looking through images, I'm starting to think at the very least, Yuudachi Kai Ni/Yuudachi Second Remodel should get her own tag. The degree her appearance changes is greater than any of the specifically renamed remodels aside from Ro-500 so it makes sense from that angle. Including her in the general tag would also have the problematic side effect of making images of Fubuki Kai Ni harder to find (particularly the relatively rare images of them together like post #1901637 and post #1948060).
Another question, does the remodel_(kantai_collection) tag is applicable to girls wearing their camouflage patterned uniforms like Zuikaku, Zuihou and Prinz Eugene. The difference between their remodeled form from their base form is clearly visible.
What if I wanted to search for only the carrier remodels of Chitose and Chiyoda? Or only for the seaplane tender remodels? They both have 5 remodels, 4 with different art. post #1551218, post #1533737, post #1588514 and post #1537448 might all qualify for remodel. Also, would the tag include context as well? E.g. Kitakami or Ooi referencing their ability to use midget submarines, indicating that they got their first remodel? That would lead to additional false positives as well. Chitose, Chiyoda and Ryuujou would be the ones with that probem, to a lesser degree Fusou and Yamashiro, if context applies Kitakami, Ooi, Bismarck, Z1 and Z3.
Would it apply to cosplays (post #1908834), hypothetical/if-only remodels (post #1568026, this was before she got a Kai 2) or joke remodels (any of the RaiDen ones)?
Also, there's the possibility that if you tried to search for Zuihou Kai you'd get a bunch of posts with Chitose or Chiyoda CVL but not necessarily what you're looking for. Problem's worse for Shiratsuyu, Murasame and Harusame who have a couple posts with their Kai art but which would be buried under dozens of Yuudachi and Shigure Kai 2 posts.
