Posted under General
Sorry to necrobump, but I just received a neutral record from Kyoh about my uploading practice referencing this thread. I have a habit of uploading with only the artist, copyright, and character tags, and filling in the general tags afterward, and he claims is that this is unfair to other uploaders.
I won't deny that one of the reasons I got into that habit is to upload the image before someone else nabs it. I assumed this was all in good fun, as I know I'm not the only one who plays this game. I've been beaten to the punch plenty times myself. Everyone wants to get their name next to Sayori's latest masterpiece.
Kyoh linked to this thread, but I don't think I'm in violation of it. The argument was against posts just tagged tagme. I read this thread back when it was first posted, and I saw that the consensus seemed to be that it's okay as long as you include at least the artist and copy and chara tags in the initial posting, and general tags are added shortly after, which is what I've been doing.
Am I in the wrong here? I don't want to set a bad example.
uhm, i think i have no right to intervene here, but i wish to voice my opinion as a tagger. i've looked at Coconut's report and the tag history links indicated. i would say he added the general tags, very soon enough, almost immediately after uploading. if not within the minute, within the next few minutes. if not, within an hour, or at least the very same day.
there is just a particular instant, that upon uploading with basic tags, another user immediately adds some general tags to it. but also, within that same minute, Coconut is adding more general tags himself. so i see nothing alarming in his actions. i've seen uploaded posts that stayed far longer with just a handful of tags.
when tagging fresh posts, i usually give a brief grace period for the uploader to tag his own posts or the others first, to give me more ideas. if there is something more to add or an accidental typo, then i do my job.
I usually consider myself a very thorough tagger, but I'll do this too fairly often (upload with minimal tags, then flush it out after its up). I see nothing wrong with this. The only issue would be if the uploader doesn't come back and flush things out, or worse, leaves a post as tagme alone.
Usually the reason I'll do it is if I'm using uploading in a way that doesn't allow me to preview the image as I'm tagging (as with the standard vanilla upload form). I'll tag with what I can confidently remember, and then go back and flush in the rest when I can see as I tag.
Coconut said:
Am I in the wrong here? I don't want to set a bad example.
I think your method is still inconsiderate of people who don't want to play your game and basically get beaten to the punch because they're trying to do a better job.
Being the uploader of a post I fully tagged in one go naturally becomes all the more rewarding, but I'd still prefer seeing this competition gone. Holding e-peen contests from artists' work is not really something we should be proud of.
Cyberia-Mix said:
I think your method is still inconsiderate of people who don't want to play your game and basically get beaten to the punch because they're trying to do a better job.
Being the uploader of a post I fully tagged in one go naturally becomes all the more rewarding, but I'd still prefer seeing this competition gone. Holding e-peen contests from artists' work is not really something we should be proud of.
I cannot agree more. Having typed long list of tags only to find out that the image is already uploaded with only two or three initial tags is really annoying.
I'm proposing a simple solution:
Make it so that if someone upload an image with less than five (arbitrary number, but you get the point) initial tags the upload would fail.
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kunangkuadrat said:
I'm proposing a simple solution:
Make it so that if someone upload an image with less than five (arbitrary number, but you get the point) initial tags the upload would fail.
What about images that are too abstract to contain at least five tags?
And it's a false solution, nothing keeps people from creating false tags like 'a b c d e' and correct it later.
Now, my point is: does it really matter? I think the purpose on Danbooru is to share images for everyone to see, and since you're not the author, the one who uploaded it doesn't have much impact over the image. If you just happens to upload an image a bit late but you tagged more thoroughly, why not transpose these tags on the already uploaded image? Even as a tagger, your efforts aren't naught, since the tags changes are recorded, if it can console you.
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Cyberia-Mix said:
I think your method is still inconsiderate...
kunangkuadrat said:
I cannot agree more...
I think it's silly to squabble over who's name presides over a given image. If it bothers you, it just means you're playing "the game" yourself. It's perhaps childish when playing "the game" to intentionally upload without tags simply to get your name in there, but equally so to complain simply because someone posted something a few minutes before you did.
I've noted above that there are legitimate reasons to post without many tags, so long as you are willing to go back and fully flush things out afterward. It's really only the case where someone doesn't go back that needs to be dealt with. That's the only case really worthy of any sort of moderator action.
Forcing silly arbitrary rules is not the answer.
Posting minimal tags has other motivations, as Shinjidude pointed out, so I do it regardless of how old the image is. But as far as the "uploading game" goes, the only time in which it is advantageous is during the first few minutes right after the artist has posted it. If the image is days or even only hours old, then it becomes extremely unlikely that the minute or two it would have taken to fully tag in the upload window would make a difference to anyone else. So, the only time another user could find my minimal tagging "inconsiderate" is when they too are taking measures to be notified within minutes of an artist's posting so that they can jump on it. Which means that user definitely playing the game. You can't use one technique and then complain about people using another.
As for it being childish to want your name next to the image so bad, well, that's Danbooru. Take a look at the positive user records. Other than translation work, what do you see? "Good uploads," "Excellent posts." We are a community that rewards people for posting quality material. Seeing your userpage flush with outstanding art is and should be desirable, so of course people are going to compete for the high profile pieces. Saying, "we expect you to post quality images, but don't you dare feel good about it" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As long as it doesn't get out of hand and doesn't affect the overall quality of the site, it hardly seems like something that should be discouraged.
But of course, as Deelles mentioned, the purpose of Danbooru is just to share images. Competing over who gets to do the sharing happens to be enjoyable for some, but if you're really getting angry about people beating you to an upload, you're doing it wrong.
Coconut said:
As for it being childish to want your name next to the image so bad, well, that's Danbooru. Take a look at the positive user records. Other than translation work, what do you see? "Good uploads," "Excellent posts." We are a community that rewards people for posting quality material. Seeing your userpage flush with outstanding art is and should be desirable, so of course people are going to compete for the high profile pieces. Saying, "we expect you to post quality images, but don't you dare feel good about it" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As long as it doesn't get out of hand and doesn't affect the overall quality of the site, it hardly seems like something that should be discouraged.
Bingo. The entire business model of 'Web 2.0', community-driven sites is based on the fact that if you put a number next to someone's name, it's human nature for them to want to make that number bigger. When I see a new comic posted by an artist I like, then find out another translator has beaten me there and started working on it, a little voice in the back of my head goes "oh darn", and knowing that the voice is silly doesn't make it go away.
It was always my understanding that Mr GT's behavior was considered a problem just because he would leave posts untagged for an extended period of time after speed-uploading them; i.e. actually causing a semi-long-term, quantifiable problem for normal users of the site. I don't see why we should punish or discourage behavior that doesn't meet that criterion.
I'll clarify what Mr GT was doing since not everyone knows/remembers.
He would upload 30-40 images simultaneously over a span of 2-3 minutes with nothing but the artist tag then he would go back, up to a few hours later, and tag the images themselves with other things. Every once in a while he would manage to miss an image and it would sit untagged for potentially even weeks. This was especially a problem because both he and herrmobel would do the exact same thing at the exact same time trying to beat each other out on one-tag artist-only uploads.
I can't say I'm totally immune to "the game". I like to see posts attributed to me get high scores and show up in the daily rankings as much as any user does. Typically though, what I post tends to have been out and missed for a while (usually due to being from a more obscure character, series, or artist), so I don't myself get the whole "beaten to the punch" feeling so much.
Regardless of "the game" or not though, it's not a good reason to penalize members that aren't actually hurting the community or to change posting rules. If anything, it's part of "the game" I'd say, if "the game" is even worth playing. The only time punitive action should be taken is if a user actually harms the community as a whole, as leaving untagged or undertagged posts to get buried does.
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It's not going to affect the posting rules because for the most part it bears zero consequences, yes.
If you're below contributor level though you have more to lose than your pride, as you care about your postcount.
Of course joining the game would solve the problem, but hey I'm just hoping for a more civil outcome.
Coconut said:
So, the only time another user could find my minimal tagging "inconsiderate" is when they too are taking measures to be notified within minutes of an artist's posting so that they can jump on it. Which means that user definitely playing the game. You can't use one technique and then complain about people using another.
Might just be me, but I think there's a disturbing difference between F5ing pixiv to be the first user able to start an upload (A), and commit said upload prematurely to outrun potential users who either started earlier or are trying to outrun you (B).
Since there are so many uploaders ambushed on pixiv you necessarily have to resort to (A) if you want to upload anything at all.
(B) only becomes necessary after someone else started cheating first. Things eventually become even again when everyone does (B). We don't need to do this. Please.
> Concretely, these days the quickest way to reach contributor level is to sit on pixiv and be a jerk with posting.
I think I'm already enough of a jerk for choosing my uploads with extra caution then letting other posters fight for leftovers that stand lower chances of approval (also making my presence entirely useless in the first place). Sending my uploads half-tagged to secure them on top of that would be the straw that broke the camel's back.
This is stupid enough without an extra layer of idiocy.
Cyberia-Mix said:
Since there are so many uploaders ambushed on pixiv you necessarily have to resort to (A) if you want to upload anything at all.
That's true only for the most well-known and high-profile artists, and there aren't that many of them.
Pixiv is huge, there are always lots of pics that go unnoticed, as Shinjidude said. Hell, I even remember some cases where I found a pic I liked, saved it to my HDD but then forgot to upload it, then I accidentally ran into it again while browsing pixiv a couple of months later, and uploaded it then (and that was when Mr_GT was still here).
Honestly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Unless you only care about that certain handful of famous artists, there will always be plenty of stuff to upload, provided you're patient enough to look for them.
I apologize if this is the wrong place to ask this, but I need to know why it's considered such a big deal and frowned upon to "artificially" increase one's upload and tag-edit count by going back to a post after uploading and adding any missed tags.
I'm not talking about uploading a picture with only 1-3 tags; I'm referring to uploading a picture with a decent number of tags (~15) then going back to add/remove tags a few at a time because the uploader noticed a missing tag or an inaccurate tag. The posts in this thread as well as http://zwei.coalguys.com/?p=199 make it look like something completely evil, and I don't understand why it's treated that way. I doubt anyone actually cares about your tag edit count, so long as you are actually contributing, so spending some time adding extra tags, even if it's only a few, shouldn't be discouraged.
