Log said:
I really disagree with this.
I agree with Log 100% here.
Posted under General
S1eth said:
What was the point again? Ah, yes, that unlike cat ears for cats, myon isn't a given in Youmu pictures, and not in konpaku_youmu ~ghost ~hitodama pictures either. post #821043.
It's not a given, just like not every Youmu has white hair. I'm not asking we shouldn't tag it, I'm asking not to tag it with a character tag type.
My point in this entire thread: the ghost is just a feature, not a character in its own right, just tag it with ghost or hitodama to describe the image.
BTW, what is your definition of myon doing something interesting, and how would you handle -konpaku_youmu myon images, such as the ones I linked in my first post?
To be tagged with myon: when it has face, blushing, acting on its own, being the focus of the image, being an important part of the image, no Youmu around.
E.g.: post #743020, post #699295, post #815362, post #407958
rantuyetmai said:
That's why I don't take the conclusion "things seem fine the way they are now" for granted, it's superficial.
It's not about being lazy or what, I do think forum #8593 proves that things are this way for a good reason.
I only wonder about why we actually don't have a tatara_kogasa_(umbrella) (or something) tag for when there's only the umbrella part. I thougt we had.
rantuyetmai said:
the ghost is just a feature, not a character in its own right, just tag it with ghost or hitodama to describe the image.
But myon is a unique hitodama. I'd be fine if they looked the same but it's because you can tell the difference that there's a unique tag in the first place.
And like S1eth said Youmu is commonly depicted without myon so it would be bad to remove it.
Seconding the expressive_myon tag/pool, more in favor of a tag, since pyonta is.
Cyberia-Mix said:
But myon is a unique hitodama. I'd be fine if they looked the same way but it's because you can tell the difference that there's a unique tag in the first place.
So is pyonta - very different from all other hats. And I'll hit people if they start tagging hat_with_eyes just for that reason.
Except that when a post is tagged moriya_suwako hat you are assured to find Suwako's distinctive hat.
Rare cases that fail at this can be identified with no_hat (post #722827) or alternate costumes.
Doing the same with Youmu, a post tagged konpaku_youmu ~ghost ~hitodama wouldn't be assured at all to have myon.
And then you have no tag to tell myon from other hitodamas anymore.
Like we said you'd lose the ability to find images like post #815067 or post #616720.
What makes Suwako's and Youmu's cases different is that depictions of non-myon hitodamas are frequent.
If we had common depictions of ownerless hats floating around people then the hat tag would be a problem.
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Cyberia-Mix said:
I'd be fine if they looked the same but it's because you can tell the difference that there's a unique tag in the first place.
When can you tell the difference?
A hitodama, by definition, should look like a floating tadpole shaped cloud...
Or could it be that there's a mixup between a hinodama and a will-o'-wisp?
Come to think of it, aren't they called 'yuurei' (often translated as 'phantoms')in the games?(as opposed to 'bourei'?)
Maybe we can stop trying to conflate two different objects into the same definition?
general:myon is a feature of konpaku_youmu.
char:myon_(independent) is said feature given independent agency in some manner.
DschingisKhan said:
Maybe we can stop trying to conflate two different objects into the same definition?
general:myon is a feature of konpaku_youmu.
char:myon_(independent) is said feature given independent agency in some manner.
Or maybe tag them all as general:myon and pool the ones with independent agency.
Cyberia-Mix said:
Except that when a post is tagged moriya_suwako hat you are assured to find Suwako's distinctive hat.
Rare cases that fail at this can be identified with no_hat (post #722827) or alternate costumes.Doing the same with Youmu, a post tagged konpaku_youmu ~ghost ~hitodama wouldn't be assured at all to have myon.
Heh, speaking without evidence leads you to nowhere.
Are we gonna tag Youmu's ghost-half with 2 separate tags (or 1 tag and 1 pool) just for that small population? I think not.
More so, how do you define Myon for people to tag? Its depiction are not always necessarily the same (e.g. post #828749). And how do you know post #452358 is Yuyuko's ghost and not Myon being there in place of Youmu? How do you know Myon is not one of those ghost in post #562539? People tagging myon post #131510 or post #137943 are evidence that they got used to see all hitodama as Myon.
It's a hitodama, a ghost, just tag it so. The same reason we don't create some name for Yuyuko's outfit just to find some posts of her in Japanese clothes that aren't kimono nor yukata.
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Shinjidude said:
I'm not really understanding the issue here.+1 to Log and others to keep it as it has been.
Please state why you would choose that, or encounter my reasonings.
The problem it's causing is inaccurate character count. Not only solo Youmu, but also in images with more characters together with her - people are very inconsistenly (not)tag Myon in these cases.
I don't randomly make up a thread just to waste everyone's time. It's fucking up my search and effort to garden tags a lot, when I rely on character count to do. I want a solution.
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Why do I need to make another reply after I've been captain obvious in my entire last post?
rantuyetmai said:
moriya_suwako hat : lots of that specific hat, but then stuffs like post #815610 or post #347890 get mix in. no_hat doesn't help
I did mention "no_hat or alternate costumes". The latter had no example because I couldn't even find a picture of Suwako with a non-specific hat (e.g. not a santa_hat) that wasn't made after pyonta.
Both of your examples have their own tag beside hat and both fit under alternate_costume.
rantuyetmai said:
konpaku_youmu ~ghost ~hitodama: lots of myon, but stuffs like post #569790 or post #495974 get mix in, with the total number of 13 image (I create that tag to do the survey, might delete later)
I was obviously not going to fetch examples for that because it was said in the perspective of tagging all occurrences of inanimate myon as hitodama, my point being that you certainly don't want to have hitodama drowned in a sea of myons or vice-versa, pretty much like it's currently nearly impossible to know if you'll find an actual frog on a post tagged frog ~kochiya_sanae ~moriya_suwako. Ambiguity.
If you can see the legitimacy in splitting general/character myon then how can't you see the legitimacy in splitting myon from regular hitodamas? Also, see forum #37950.
rantuyetmai said:
It's a hitodama, a ghost, just tag it so. The same reason we don't create some name for Yuyuko's outfit just to find some posts of her in Japanese clothes that aren't kimono nor yukata.
You can already with alternate_costume.
rantuyetmai said:
More so, how do you define Myon for people to tag?
I don't think it's any harder than with pyonta.
And there are borderline cases with everything. Borderline hitodama/myon should typically have both tags.
post #828749 - not really uncommon imho (about the style)
post #452358 - looks enough like myon to have it tagged, maybe along with ghost (it's like tagging red liquids on Flandre as blood when it could just be cherry juice)
post #562539 - Myon is specifically assumed to stand out from other hitodamas, that's why it's tagged, therefore this one is just hitodama
post #131510 - I'd say mistagging, because Komachi meets hitodamas herself
post #137943 - for being so big it's obviously myon or made after it (and therefore enough to tag it as such)
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Tagging myon only when "doing something interesting" also messes with the chartags:1 because no matter what myon does, Youmu+Myon is ALWAYS one character. Even in cases where Youmu uses her ability to shape her ghost/phantom-half into a human form, although solo changes to 2girls and clone/dual_persona, the chartags:x stay the same, rightfully so.
Now I can count on Youmu+Myon being assuredly chartags:2 (I'd actually prefer chartags:1 for all of them, so I can find ALL Youmu solo images with that query, but solo will have to take care of that once tagged on all of them.).
On the other hand, if myon were a general tag and implicated konpaku_youmu (because if you identify something as myon, you also know that it is Youmu), we couldn't find the depictions of myon -konpaku_youmu, the soul without the body, anymore, those which we can identify as Youmu only because "the artist said so".
edit:Cyberia-Mix: I have my doubts about tagging characters (the tag type) in ambiguous cases. Assuming we didn't have a myon tag (or it were aliased to konpaku_youmu because in another dimension, we use it like the Japanese), would you tag post post #137943's ghost/hitodama konpaku_youmu? Control Question: post #667096 for the question above.
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It seems like a bad idea to implicate myon to konpaku_youmu, they are visually distinct and hence separably taggable entities, despite their canonical identity. I also don't see why Myon should be considered anything other than a character, since pets and the like are always tagged as such. I don't see why high overlap should change the rules in that regard.
Cyberia-Mix said:
Why do I need to make another reply after I've been captain obvious in my entire last post?
Because those are not convincing, as I pointed out.
Cyberia-Mix said:
If you can see the legitimacy in splitting general/character myon then how can't you see the legitimacy in splitting myon from regular hitodamas?
Now this is a valid argument. Fine, I guess turning myon into a general tag is the best compromise then.
S1eth said:
Tagging myon only when "doing something interesting" also messes with the chartags:1 because no matter what myon does, Youmu+Myon is ALWAYS one character.
Visually, no.
That's why I say it is a feature. Myon acting as a real character is a small, manageable number of posts. Making the whole thing a character though, I have to go chartags:2, chartags:3, chartags:4, blah blah + somethings else twice (with and without myon tag) when cleaning something. Double the work.
People don't normally tag myon when there's more characters together with Youmu is also a proof they don't see it as one. They mostly use it instead of the ghost tag when there is a ghost prominent enough in the images.
S1eth said:
if myon were a general tag and implicated konpaku_youmu
No implication, similar to why we don't implicate sword_of_hisou to hinanawi_tenshi.
S1eth said:
Tagging myon only when "doing something interesting" also messes with the chartags:1 because no matter what myon does, Youmu+Myon is ALWAYS one character.
Meta-knowledge.
In reality, konpaku_youmu consists of the body and the soul (myon). On Danbooru, konpaku_youmu is mainly used to tag the body instead of the whole character. The body is enough to identify the character. Myon is only to be used for Konpaku Youmu, therefore myon is also sufficient to identify Konpaku Youmu. If you are not sure that a ghost is Konpaku Youmu's half, you are also not sure that the ghost is myon.
This "meta knowledge" is the kind that is always used to identify characters. (besides, it's in the wikis of both tags)
The same applies to Tatara Kogasa's human body and (still tagless) umbrella, both being visible distinct, but together the same character.
rantuyetmai said:
People don't normally tag myon when there's more characters together with Youmu is also a proof they don't see it as one. They mostly use it instead of the ghost tag when there is a ghost prominent enough in the images.
I can't verify that without looking at all images in 47 pages of konpaku_youmu -myon chartags:>5 individually. 2 images on the first 20 were missing the tag. (this small sample is useless by itself). I attribute missing tags to laziness. Since there are many characters, they tag the canon characters, the artist and copyright and call it a day. The number of people who care if Youmu is fully visible in a group image or not might not be that high.
rantuyetmai said:
No implication, similar to why we don't implicate sword_of_hisou to hinanawi_tenshi.
The sword_of_hisou can be used by any character, not just Hinanawi Tenshi.
Suwako's hat can be worn by anyone.
If Tatara Kogasa's umbrella is used by someone else, Tatara Kogasa is always in the image. (don't say meta-knowledge!)
If myon is alone or with someone else, (half of) Konpaku Youmu is always in the image.
I'm against that implication myself for the reason that the Konpaku_youmu tag is often used synonymously for the body, not the whole character, and not being able to find myon alone. So even though it's technically correct, it would cause more problems. Implicating sword_of_hisou to Hinanawi_Tenshi is just wrong and I hope you understand the difference I tried to explain above.
Now myon as a general tag is something I'd favor, but it is always closely tied to Konpaku_Youmu, as said above.
We don't have to concentrate only on Youmu here, you can also discuss Kogasa's case or Medicine Melancholy and Su-san. It is widely believed that Su-san is the doll that was abandoned (like the umbrella) and Medicine_Melancholy is the same as Kogasa's body.
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We could make a new general tag for Myons that aren't doing anything and use the tag to be the "tag what you see" side of things. This would free up the Myon tag to be used like the Pyonta tag.
Implicate Myon to whatever the new tag is, as Myon will always be Youmu's ghost half but not the other way around.
I've previously searched Myon when searching for a picture that I knew he was in but not doing anything, so I'd like to keep the ability to search specifically for Youmu's ghost-half. I suppose konpaku_youmu ghost would work, but there's going to be false positives or negatives. Example: one could theoretically have a picture without Youmu's human-half that contains her ghost-half, but the ghost-half isn't doing anything of particular interest (like floating just in panel to imply Youmu's presence, something like post #695305).
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I'd say keep the Myon tag the same and make a new general tag like interesting_myon, then implicate it to myon. Similar to what Log said about pooling those guys.
interesting_myon should be able to deal with the aforementioned problems, though newcomers to Danbooru and taggers will have problems finding those posts, as this tag is probably only used in Danbooru, and you can only see what's interesting by looking at the posts, not by tags. In case the tag is established enough, I don't see any problem then, only in the initial phase of the tag.
Being a general tag, the chartags problem's solved. I don't know much about tags in general, so this might not work.
...wait a minute, this is completely the same as pooling them. I didn't see anyone disagree with Log about pooling them; you guys just ignored his post.
Also, Myon is more widely known as "Youmu's ghost", not "Youmu's ghost that's doing something unusual". I certainly don't want new users getting weirded out just because "myon" in Danbooru has the second meaning.
So in short, my stance on this is: do not change Myon and pool the interesting ones or make a new tag for them.
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