miko tag

Log said:
Perhaps split the tag in two, touhou_miko and miko, seeing as how there is a rather distinctive style to each.

or add a touhou_miko/miko_(touhou) tag to all the reimu/sanae images where they're wearing the distinctive touhou miko outfit and an implication from the new tag to miko, as it would be a subset of miko.

I don't think I understand that.
Every character in such an outfit other than Reimu/Sanae would just be tagged as hakurei_reimu_(cosplay) / kochiya_sanae_(cosplay).
It's not like there is an absolute "touhou" style of miko clothes. The detached sleeves they have in common, but so do many other characters.

^^^^
Some artist can dress a touhou character with a unique color scheme that is not a direct character cosplay but is clearly a touhou miko.

Granola said:
touhou miko is a bad tag.

Howso? They are two visually distinct outfits I fail to see how separating them with separate tags would be bad.

A miko should be a traditional outifit suchas what post #424851.

Touhou's separation being zun's visually distinct version as in post #414427.

post #428799 is a good justification for tag separation as you would not be able to find it by doing a miko -touhou search.

Log said:
post #428799 is a good justification for tag separation as you would not be able to find it by doing a miko -touhou search.

It's just as much a justification to only tag this kind of images as miko to begin with.

Log said:
^^^^
Some artist can dress a touhou character with a unique color scheme that is not a direct character cosplay but is clearly a touhou miko.

I searched for some touhou +detached_sleeves -hakurei_reimu -kochiya_sanae pictures (well, most of them are Momiji) and ones I know of.
post #401719
post #349994
post #357014
post #327667
post #311647
post #241208
post #360864
post #315939
post #396767

Well, I wouldn't think any of them as a miko other than Utsuho (artist's comment: Okuu and Reimu look really similar.) and Aimu (Let's Make Touhou Kids), who are clearly designed after Reimu. "touhou miko" somehow sounds as ridiculous as "ZUN hat".

Just after a quick skim on the debate in this thread, I agree that the Miko tag is overused. Just a quick addition to the discussion.

When tagging characters myself, I usually observe the intentional(In this case, ZUN's original Reimu/Sanae) and then the tweaks and changes of the artist in the uploaded image itself(Eye/hair colour/length of hair outfit, situation, etc).

Tagging Reimu with "brown_eyes, brown_hair" is similar to mentioning that snow is white. Reimu IS a miko, because ZUN designed her to be. Tagging Reimu as such is a pleonasm.

In my opinion, only in pictures where the Miko aspect of Reimu is being put forward as an important role in the picture, should be given the "miko" tag. General use of the miko tag would only taint the "miko" pool with an over-quantity.

alicemaiwaifu said:
Tagging Reimu with "brown_eyes, brown_hair" is similar to mentioning that snow is white.

Well there is black, brown and purple haired
and (red-)brown and blue eyed Reimu in the games.
Of course she is tagged as *_hair for people to find her when looking for girls with * colored hair.
Just saying

Of course, my mistake of generalising ZUN's artwork. But this trivial matter does not take away the fact of tagging features on characters, which should be supportive to the interests of the searchers(Namely, unique features of said character image).

In a way, your correction also verifies my view on tagging of characters. Users who enter, let's say, green_hair find a huge pool of touhou(Yuuka, Wriggle etc). Though the -touhou tag is very helpful, it only hides, but not fully cures this "Obvious character feature tagging" phenomena.

As coming back to said correction in my previous (and initial) paragraph, the blue feature tagging should be focussed on singularity or characteristics of certain versions(purple eyed reimu, as you said) or situations/events.

Therefore, tagging EVERY Hakurei_reimu as a miko is quite overdone, unless the situation brings forward the miko aspect of reimu.

Even if I don't think that she should be tagged as miko, I disagree with your reasoning.

The general danbooru user searching for "green_hair" expects (wants) to find ALL pictures showing green hair regardless which person wears it or what their original hair color is.

You probably mean tags like "feet" and "legs".

I don't think I support it in the case of miko here (mostly due to Reimu not actually conforming to the definition of the tag), but I support fully tagging characters with hair / eye-color tags. Even if it ends up swamping the tag, those posts should be of interest to somebody using the tag.

alicemaiwaifu said:
Users who enter, let's say, green_hair find a huge pool of touhou(Yuuka, Wriggle etc). Though the -touhou tag is very helpful, it only hides, but not fully cures this "Obvious character feature tagging" phenomena.

"Obvious character feature tagging" is not a bad thing, I'd say.

Put it to you like this: If I enter red_hair and huge_breasts (off the top of my head), I get tons of results. Onozuka Komachi is one, but there's also Kousaka Tamaki (To Heart 2), Yoko Ritona (Gurren Lagann), Kallen Stadtfeld (Code Geass), just to name a few. If someone hadn't tagged their "obvious features", that elementary search wouldn't have returned those images.

If there's a lot of characters and/or images that fit a tag, I say let the tag be applied to all images for which it fits. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is generally reasonable.

If it's an issue of whether or not those features are especially prominent, well, I'd argue that's too subjective. What's prominent to one person may be overlooked easily by another. If someone sees a feature in the image that has a corresponding tag, they should tag it.

Therefore, tagging EVERY Hakurei_reimu as a miko is quite overdone, unless the situation brings forward the miko aspect of reimu.

Like, say, her holding a gohei?

I still think that Reimu's normal clothing looks miko-like enough to qualify, if you know what one looks like when the miko is wearing a chihaya.
The only differences:
1. Hakama is exchanged for an actual skirt. Considering how poofy hakama are, this doesn't mean much more than cutting open the bottom of one.
2. White uwagi exchanged for detached_sleeves, with the sleeves still retaining their loose, miko-ish appearance. The cinch ties that hold them to her upper arms are a very traditional Japanese style.
3. Ribbons, frills, and a yellow necktie of some sort were added. This is just minor detail, though, and doesn't really deter the miko-ish appearance of her outfit.

If she's not wearing her miko garb - for example, when she's drawn nude or nearly so - then by all means, leave the tag off. Tagging it in that case is applying meta-knowledge, not visual cues. But if she is clothed in her usual getup, it makes sense to add the tag.

Bottom line: I see Reimu, I see a miko. The rule of thumb is "tag what you see", thus, I shall.

sgcdonmai said:
chihaya.

We should just have the general "chihaya" tag then and use it on all pictures where one is seen. Miko doesn't tell much about anything, just like "witch" or "vampire".

sgcdonmai said:
Put it to you like this: If I enter red_hair and huge_breasts (off the top of my head), I get tons of results. Onozuka Komachi is one, but there's also Kousaka Tamaki (To Heart 2), Yoko Ritona (Gurren Lagann), Kallen Stadtfeld (Code Geass), just to name a few. If someone hadn't tagged their "obvious features", that elementary search wouldn't have returned those images.

By all respects, I (again, the subjectivity tagging debate)do regard "Huge_breasts" as quite a special feature instead of an "obvious feature" in an image. The "breasts" tag itself already (or should, imo)implies that there is at least a focus of the artist on breasts, or something which might interest people who are looking for said feature.

In a way, I agree with the "obvious taggers". I guess it's more of an effort debate, in the end. And in theory, the "unique features" of an image will not get flooded in a tag flood, regardless.
My ignorance on my part.

But instead of derailing the topic(my doing, again), we should regain our attention on the initial tag discussion, though it's somewhat related.

About the proposed Chihaya tag: If it fits what Reimu is wearing better(by judging the visual features instead of telling what it is, then it is a better choice indeed.

alicemaiwaifu said:
About the proposed Chihaya tag: If it fits what Reimu is wearing better(by judging the visual features instead of telling what it is, then it is a better choice indeed.

Well, a few problems with that, too:
1. First and foremost, any incidence of chihaya automatically implies miko and japanese_clothes, since it's a piece of traditional Japanese clothing almost never worn outside of Japan, and it is a distinct part of the ceremonial wear for a miko. So it kinda defeats the purpose of seperating them.

2. chihaya is currently an ambiguous tag. I have no idea what would need to be done to give it distinction.

3. Chihaya come in a large array of prints and styles. It'd be too hard a tag to spot for unless the user really knows what he's about.

alicemaiwaifu said:
About the proposed Chihaya tag: If it fits what Reimu is wearing better(by judging the visual features instead of telling what it is, then it is a better choice indeed.

I meant that in a different way.
witch : witch_hat :: miko : chihaya

Witch is subjective or requires witch_hat, broom_riding or meta-knowledge about the series. We don't tag Beatrice as witch. Miko is a profession, not an object that can be easily identified on a picture.
A chihaya is the traditional miko garb and thus only applied if it is clearly visible in the image, not a modern variation of it. /edit: it seems wikipedia hss contradicting information about what is the traditional garment depending on what wiki language for the article is chosen.

Edit:

sgcdonmai said:
2. chihaya is currently an ambiguous tag. I have no idea what would need to be done to give it distinction.

Chihaya come in a large array of prints and styles

There are only about ten pictures tagged chihaya. Just adding a _(series name) to the two chihaya characters and remove the X in "ambigious". Takes about a minute or two.

(large array). It does. Care to link me to examples?

S1eth said:
Miko doesn't tell much about anything, just like "witch" or "vampire".

Honestly your comparison of miko with witch and vampire makes me think that we need to do more to tighten the definitions of those tags. Though I guess it got me more logically thinking and probably a complete 180 in thinking on the miko tag.

A tag like miko is an conjunction tag for several visual elements to reduce having to search each and every element of the image to nail it down exactly what you want. When you type albino you are more or less are searching for the characteristics pale_skin red_eyes white_hair. The same can be said about tags like miko, vampire, and witch. We just haven't broken down the list of elements that make up those images, then dry it down to the essential elements, and then list how many of those elements at minimum are needed to make that image be what it is.

One thing to consider though is that with the miko tag there isn't a broader tag that can be formed to cover "miko-ish" clothing, but we can always make more specific subtags like traditional_miko or something of that nature.

S1eth said:
(large array). It does. Care to link me to examples?

None that I know of are in English, but here's some photo galleries of various different shrines in Japan performing their ceremonies.
http://www.geocities.jp/hibakama_hakusho/photo.htm

Click on the pictures on that page to go to a gallery of photos taken at that shrine of a ceremony particular to it.

Note how even the "traditional" miko garb seems rather varied, especially in the coloring of their clothes. On the miko you see there, the chihaya is the outermost upper-body garment the miko wear. There are many different colors, styles, and patterns/print motifs used. It could be quite difficult to pick out, based on that, what does and does not look like a chihaya, for the sake of its own tag.

For a more anime-specific example: post #5553
From asagiri_no_miko. The eldest sister is wearing a plain chihaya over the "traditional" red hakama and white uwagi.

NWF_Renim said:
One thing to consider though is that with the miko tag there isn't a broader tag that can be formed to cover "miko-ish" clothing, but we can always make more specific subtags like traditional_miko or something of that nature.

That actually sounds like a pretty good idea to me. This way, miko should refer to things that are supposed to be "miko-ish" (Reimu and Sanae above), and traditional_miko can be used (with implication to miko) for the more "traditional" (read: "traditional for anime and such") clothing like that worn by the girls of asagiri_no_miko and others.

Running across a Sanae image reminded me, did we come to a decision about this at all?

I still say that Sanae and Reimu shouldn't be tagged as "miko" if in their normal costumes.

I don't believe we have resolved this issue at all.

I still believe we should add a traditional_miko tag to cover the more traditional/original outfit, while allowing the miko tag to cover a slightly broader range of clothing intended to give off a miko-like appearance. That way you can make everyone more or less happy and you can move the japanese_clothes tag from miko to traditional_miko.

I think there are some problems in trying to define "miko" as those with "normal" clothes.

How far from "normal" can one get before you can no longer tag it "miko"?
post #385302 > post #432882 > post #430775 > post #366294 > post #422296 > post #265537 > post #313814 > post #433156

What happens to those images that you don't qualify for the "miko" tag, especially those that have a very heavy miko theme or emphasis?

Sorry to bring up a year old topic but it is relevant for me atm and it is probably better then starting a new one.

I don't see any real consensus on the subject and I don't want to while tagging pointlessly cause people to have to un-tag something like this.

I quickly pursued the subject and came across two tags the first being:

touhou_miko

Seemed to be somewhat hated.

What about a slight change of NWF_Renim's idea:

nontraditional_miko

For touhou Miko's

That I think would make a mass edit easier.

If it was an independent tag from miko, then it might work. Currently it could not be put into an implication (and thus couldn't be made a subset) of the miko tag, since miko currently implicates Japanese_clothes.

Over the time since this issue came up, I've honestly started to think the single largest hurdle in resolving any of these is the miko -> Japanese_clothes implication. If you removed it and made people tag Japanese_clothes separately when it was the traditional version of the outfit, much of the problem would be resolved. Traditional_miko would effectively be miko Japanese_clothes, while nontraditonal_miko would be miko -Japanese_clothes.

Anyways, I think what is important is we have something that covers the concept of miko-ish that isn't the traditional miko, whatever method we go about accomplishing that.

hmm for the time being I think I will use shrine_maiden since while it is the same thing it would be a good/bad placeholder to clean up the "japanese_clothes" tag.

Shrine_priestess or priestess might work too but regardless it will be an empty wiki entry so when the time comes it can be killed easily.