Require Translation of Hashtags to tag as 'Commentary'

hasu_no_kougeki said:

Mind you, the only difference between Builders and Contributors is the ability to skip the queue. It has no bearing anywhere else. His comment on self-destruction applies to the latter as well; it just so happens that it was directed at someone without that privilege.

Yeah, colloquially "builder" refers to Builder, Contributor and Approver. This is further reflected by all 3 having the same role of "Builder" on the Discord (which all parties here are in, so they would/should know). This isn't some class conflict lol.

WRS said:

My point is that this could just as easily have been a discussion on the original topic. Period. It doesn't matter what your intentions were - I don't like having to go back and forth between two topics that are trying to arrive at, or discuss, the same natural conclusion, since ultimately any result of voting or discussion here would impact the tag's usage and therefore also a potential implication. It's really that simple.

If you want to continue engaging me in bad faith, then I see no point in participating any further. I don't want to discuss this with someone who's actively hostile and continues to say things like I'm "ignorant" despite acknowledging and disagreeing with your stance and reason for creating the topic, or threatens to annoy everyone by reposting the same thing to force discussion when people have already made their stances clear, or takes the most extreme literal piss out of my comments.

I won't even bother to comment on that final quip you made. It's just clear bad faith.

That's fine. You've had ample opportunity to state your opinion and have refused to do so, which means there's literally nobody opposed to deleting/changing the line in question. With nobody in opposition, it's not just a consensus but unanimous, though there's of course plenty of time for someone to actually show up and state why they think we should keep leaving hashtags untranslated if the BUR is rejected. (Again, rejected by admin, not timed out, because apparently I have to clarify that every time I say this.)

Holy shit. This is just like last time on Discord. You were literally screaming at me after I told you in no uncertain terms that I wasn't commenting on the merit, just on the way you went about it. You were screaming for me to give my opinion on the tagging matter, like that was somehow relevant to the comment I was making (it was not).

TL;DR for those just now arriving: lots of tone policing from people who won't state their opinion or have already stated they were amenable to either outcome, along with a lot of objection to making it clear that we're discussing commentary as a whole rather than limiting the discussion to just hashtag-only commentary.

And now we're at page 2 without anyone weighing in on the topic, and as I noted previously, there's nobody who has explicitly voiced objections to either changing or deleting the line from the commentary wiki, so I would really like people who feel that the wiki should be kept exactly as it is to chime in and say why!

I'll weight in. Yes to the removal of the line, no to the implication BUR.

Meta information such as hashtags and mentions are not worth translating, I don't translate it when I come across it, I also advocate not to translate them, it has little to no information value.

If a post has commentary tag it means the text in the commentary section is completely comprehensible by an English speaker, but if it contains only meta information such as the case of hashtag-only commentary, then there is no need to have commentary tag in the first place, for it has no information worthy of comprehension.

I really don't get this outcry against making a new topic for a new discussion, even if the subject matter overlaps somewhat with another. Bringing up "last times on discord" in a forum topic that should have nothing to do with discord is weirder still and just paints some people as motivated by personal vendettas, keep that contained in there please.

Ajisaiii said:

I'll weight in. Yes to the removal of the line, no to the implication BUR.

Meta information such as hashtags and mentions are not worth translating, I don't translate it when I come across it, I also advocate not to translate them, it has little to no information value.

Agreed. Any outliers can be tagged manually (tumblr tags spring to mind, would be nice if the field actually supported them). In my ideal world commentary is reserved for artist notes of substance beyond just character/show/pairing name for visibility, because this usage is no different from tags on other art platforms like pixiv, which we don't import for a reason.

Diet_Soda said:

I really don't get this outcry against making a new topic for a new discussion, even if the subject matter overlaps somewhat with another.

Because it's the exact same discussion. Bringing up the Discord is relevant because it's where the exact same weird non-arguing behavior ("I didn't repost 'the same thing', and I am REALLY FUCKING TIRED of people claiming that. READ THE GODDAMNED FUCKING TITLE.") also happened, and it happening here too is frankly just fucking annoying. That said, I guess I will repeat what I've said again:

To add to what was said in the two posts above me, I am also against translating hashtags in-place because the format sets the very common expectation that #Foo leads to a search for that exact string. If I click on a hashtag for seemingly English or Romaji text and get directed to a moonrunes search, I'd be kind of annoyed, since that isn't what I clicked on.

So yeah, I'm against considering them as a part of the commentary proper when it comes to tagging. Obviously, [tn] can still be used, especially for Tumblr's hashtags (which are very much an exception and using them as an argument for overall hashtags is a pretty poor one IMO). A full-on exception for Tumblr would also work.

Edit: forgot to add, I think these should be implied. I consider hashtags the same as normal URLs in that aspect, and everyone can "read" a commentary made up of purely URLs.

Ajisaiii said:

I'll weight in. Yes to the removal of the line, no to the implication BUR.

Meta information such as hashtags and mentions are not worth translating, I don't translate it when I come across it, I also advocate not to translate them, it has little to no information value.

If a post has commentary tag it means the text in the commentary section is completely comprehensible by an English speaker, but if it contains only meta information such as the case of hashtag-only commentary, then there is no need to have commentary tag in the first place, for it has no information worthy of comprehension.

Thank you! For clarification, I think you fall into the 'nuance' camp, since from my reading of your reply, you agree with deleting the line, but only because you don't think hashtag-only commentary should ever be tagged as commentary, and presumably you would un-imply symbol-only commentary as well. Is that accurate?

A commentary that reads "#炎竜 #レッドドラゴン #ダンジョン飯" should then be left as-is, marked only as hashtag-only commentary, because there's no information worthy of comprehension?

definitelysleeping said:

[...]

A commentary that reads "#炎竜 #レッドドラゴン #ダンジョン飯" should then be left as-is, marked only as hashtag-only commentary, because there's no information worthy of comprehension?

i don't know what that commentary means
EDIT: i misread. i did not realize this is a question

Just going to reiterate some stuff already said in the old thread regarding this whole debacle.

Ylimegirl said:

Will say it might be worth mentioning with all this commentary-related talk lately that commentary is also a metatag that can be searched—but while commentary:translated and commentary:untranslated bring results fairly fast, commentary:true and commentary:false always time out for me (unless presumably enough additional qualifiers are added to narrow down the search).

And forum #340403 - how is someone who doesn't speak a language supposed to know for certain that the hashtags are just the copyright & character names? I'm actually at a point where I think for sites like Twitter and Instagram we should maybe not be putting those blocks of hashtags on a post in the commentary field at all. If it's inserted into part of a sentence itself, sure--but not the end. If it's referring to a character or copyright, hopefully it'll get picked up by the translated tags feature; same with memes & drawing trends/challenges/etc.

So I guess I fall into the nuance/secret third thing camp?

definitelysleeping said:
Is that accurate?

Yes

Ylimegirl said:

Just going to reiterate some stuff already said in the old thread regarding this whole debacle.

And forum #340403 - how is someone who doesn't speak a language supposed to know for certain that the hashtags are just the copyright & character names? I'm actually at a point where I think for sites like Twitter and Instagram we should maybe not be putting those blocks of hashtags on a post in the commentary field at all. If it's inserted into part of a sentence itself, sure--but not the end. If it's referring to a character or copyright, hopefully it'll get picked up by the translated tags feature; same with memes & drawing trends/challenges/etc.

So I guess I fall into the nuance/secret third thing camp?

Ooh, getting rid of the hashtags altogether *certainly* fixes the problem, and technically even satisfies Unbreakable's position, though I wouldn't presume on whether he would agree with your specific position.

For the hashtags that are inline and would still be included, do you think those should be translated, or left as-is per ANON because users might think they're clicking on a '#yuuka' Twitter search when it's actually '#ユウカ'? (Do users actually click on the hashtag links?)

Usually hashtag-only doesn't matter and I'm fine with leaving something that is just the character's name in hiragana as "commentary", but the tumblr example above is a good instance where commentary_request might still be applicable as is any time when people are using tags for events or novelty situations so I'm downvoting this BUR.

It's worth noting that for someone who doesn't know moonrunes they might end up commentary_request-ing just a character name or copyright name anyway since it might not be immediately obvious what it says, that is just to be expected.

At this point I'm wondering if maybe the real issue here is that a bunch of users take issue with the first paragraph in the commentary wiki:

A post where the artist commentary is understandable by the average English speaker. This can be because it was translated by a Danbooru user into English from another language, the original commentary was already in English, or the commentary consists of symbols or something similar.

... and want it changed to match the second paragraph of the english commentary wiki:

This tag should not be used when the commentary contains no actual English - such as commentaries consisting solely of the names of one or more characters, copyrights, artists, etc.

If we cannot even agree on whether "Hatsune Miku + Pikachu" counts as commentary, then it's no wonder you're all in such vehement disagreement about hashtags. So can we check that we're all on the same page about the current rules?

1. ""

2. "🐰"

3. "Hatsune Miku"

4. "初音ミク"

5. "#hatsunemiku"

6. "#初音ミク"

7. "Hatsune Miku #hatsunemiku"

8. "Hatsune Miku #初音ミク"

9. "初音ミク #初音ミク"

10. "Bunny Hatsune Miku is playing piano"

11. "バニー初音ミクがピアノ弾いて"

12. "Bunny Hatsune Miku is playing piano #bunny #hatsunemiku"

13. "Bunny Hatsune Miku is playing piano #バニー #初音ミク"

14. "バニー初音ミクがピアノ弾いて #バニー #初音ミク"

Under current rules, :

1 gets nothing.

2 gets symbol-only commentary.

5 and 6 get hashtag-only commentary.

10 12 and 13 get english commentary.

2 3 5 7 8 10 12 and 13 get commentary.

4 9 11 and 14 get commentary request.

Setting aside what everyone *wants*, do we at least agree that this is how the wiki *says* these 14 examples should be tagged? If we cannot agree on what the wiki currently says, then it won't help to ask what changes need to be made.

The BUR and the post have nothing to do with each other, I'm confused. In fact I'd say they actively contradict each other.

Trouble_Windows said:

The BUR and the post have nothing to do with each other, I'm confused. In fact I'd say they actively contradict each other.

If you read the initial post, the issue is the following line in the wiki for commentary:

If the only untranslated portions of a commentary are meta, such as hashtags or mentions, then tag it with commentary and not partial commentary or commentary request.

During the previous attempt at this BUR, it was pointed out that this rule would possibly need to be changed or deleted and we should debate that if the BUR fails. Specifically because if a commentary field has only hashtags, then this guidance in the wiki says to tag that post with commentary regardless of whether the hashtags are translated. The opposition to approving this BUR was apparently coming from people who either want hashtag-only commentary deprecated and nuked (ie, Unbreakable), or from people who want some or all hashtags translated.

I have since come to the conclusion that there is a third group in opposition, which is people who don't want this sort of information to be tagged as commentary regardless of whether it is a hashtag, which *also* would require a large change to the commentary wiki.

So, basically, if you think there's a contradiction, it's only because the two options are mutually exclusive, and I want us to pick one or for someone to offer up a preferable 3rd option, though I cannot see how any option other than approving the BUR can avoid at least changing the wiki for commentary, which would have site-wide ramifications given that it's one of the largest tags.