Donmai

Z-A Hex Maniac

Posted under Tags

BUR #38165 is pending approval.

mass update hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_legends:_z-a -> hex_maniac_(pokemon_legends:_z-a)

Pokémon Legends: Z-A is set 50 years in the future relative to Pokémon X and Y, so the version of Hex Maniac seen in the trailer for that game is actually a new character (in as much as Hex was ever a character) and should be tagged as such rather than an alternate costume.

Note this is not officially announced as Hex Maniac so we should probably wait for that in case it's a new class or incidental. You also might as well add hex_maniac_(pokemon_rse) since that's not implied to the base tag yet.

That being said Trainer Classes are inconsistent right now. Some like Ace Trainers have a lot of granularity based on their game while other ones like beauty_(pokemon) are all grouped under a single tag. Personally prefer a single tag + game but if we want to make game-specific tags a lot of gardening needs to be done.

There's something strange about tagging a character we technically don't know as Hex Maniac because the fandom immediately latched onto the idea that she was rather than starting out with a new tag we could rename if necessary.

If it looks like a duck...

I'm inclined to leave it alone until more info or the game comes out. I'd rather not mess with the taggers' muscle memory and introduce a new tag, then have it scattered between two character tags instead of just one.

Updated

zetsubousensei said:

That being said Trainer Classes are inconsistent right now. Some like Ace Trainers have a lot of granularity based on their game while other ones like beauty_(pokemon) are all grouped under a single tag. Personally prefer a single tag + game but if we want to make game-specific tags a lot of gardening needs to be done.

As far as I can tell, all of the Ace Trainer tags were created by one Member exactly a month ago with no discussion, so there's not actually any inconsistency, at least as far as the mentioned tags go. We should just consolidate all of them into just Ace Trainer (female) (pokemon) and Ace Trainer (male) (pokemon) since that distinction is at least a good idea.

I'm also not sure why we even have hex maniac (pokemon rse). There doesn't appear to have been a discussion on the creation of that tag, either, and hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_rse is a single page of results, so It's not as if the tag is doing all that much work.

Updated

blindVigil said:

As far as I can tell, all of the Ace Trainer tags were created by one Member exactly a month ago with no discussion, so there's not actually any inconsistency, at least as far as the mentioned tags go. We should just consolidate all of them into just Ace Trainer (female) (pokemon) and Ace Trainer (male) (pokemon) since that distinction is at least a good idea.

I'm also not sure why we even have hex maniac (pokemon rse). There doesn't appear to have been a discussion on the creation of that tag, either, and hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_rse is a single page of results, so It's not as if the tag is doing all that much work.

We should start a new topic about the general tagging practice around the NPC trainers, though this thread wouldn't be bad for the conversation since it deals with the absolute most popular of the bunch.

blindVigil said:

As far as I can tell, all of the Ace Trainer tags were created by one Member exactly a month ago with no discussion, so there's not actually any inconsistency, at least as far as the mentioned tags go. We should just consolidate all of them into just Ace Trainer (female) (pokemon) and Ace Trainer (male) (pokemon) since that distinction is at least a good idea.

I'm also not sure why we even have hex maniac (pokemon rse). There doesn't appear to have been a discussion on the creation of that tag, either, and hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_rse is a single page of results, so It's not as if the tag is doing all that much work.

Veraducks said:

We should start a new topic about the general tagging practice around the NPC trainers, though this thread wouldn't be bad for the conversation since it deals with the absolute most popular of the bunch.

Yeah regardless if this is a Hex Maniac or a different character the separation of the different trainer designs from each game into different tags is a very recent thing that needs to be addressed. I noticed that the Lass (Pokemon) tag was recently hit with this as well. Previously the rule was that you just tag the copyright from which game the design came from.

Is Hex Maniac going to be the only exception due to how popular it is? Will all NPC trainers adopt this? The positive of adopting it would be that it would give more precise information on what the image is displaying at a glance of the tags, the negative would that it could argue some tag bloat and would require a mass update of additional tags to a lot of NPC trainer images across the board.

pc88 said:

Yeah regardless if this is a Hex Maniac or a different character the separation of the different trainer designs from each game into different tags is a very recent thing that needs to be addressed. I noticed that the Lass (Pokemon) tag was recently hit with this as well. Previously the rule was that you just tag the copyright from which game the design came from.

Is Hex Maniac going to be the only exception due to how popular it is? Will all NPC trainers adopt this? The positive of adopting it would be that it would give more precise information on what the image is displaying at a glance of the tags, the negative would that it could argue some tag bloat and would require a mass update of additional tags to a lot of NPC trainer images across the board.

I think all of these game specific tags are completely superfluous and there's no reason for Pokémon to be an exception to standard character tag policy. The only new tags I'd support are male and female tags for the Ace Trainers, since I'm surprised we hadn't already done that.

And of course we can make a tag for the Hex Maniac like girl if it turns out to not actually be a Hex Maniac once we have more information.

blindVigil said:

I'm also not sure why we even have hex maniac (pokemon rse). There doesn't appear to have been a discussion on the creation of that tag, either, and hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_rse is a single page of results, so It's not as if the tag is doing all that much work.

pc88 said:

Is Hex Maniac going to be the only exception due to how popular it is? Will all NPC trainers adopt this? The positive of adopting it would be that it would give more precise information on what the image is displaying at a glance of the tags, the negative would that it could argue some tag bloat and would require a mass update of additional tags to a lot of NPC trainer images across the board.

Hex Maniac (Pokemon RSE) was created by @KalpacMuskoxen back in mid-2023 after a Discord discussion (which didn't have anything to do with Pokemon at first, so I'll link to when it becomes about that) because searching hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_rse did not guarantee that you would actually get posts that depicted RSE!Hex Maniac. At the time, even in that search, ORAS Hex Maniac outnumbered RSE Hex Maniac, and even now it's only just about balanced between ORAS Hex Maniac and RSE Hex Maniac in that search if you count the former cosplaying as the latter in the latter's favor.

That is to say, RSE Hex Maniac's tag was made explicitly as an exception, not as an example to be used, because of Hex Maniac's specific circumstances.

Damian0358 said:

Hex Maniac (Pokemon RSE) was created by @KalpacMuskoxen back in mid-2023 after a Discord discussion (which didn't have anything to do with Pokemon at first, so I'll link to when it becomes about that) because searching hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_rse did not guarantee that you would actually get posts that depicted RSE!Hex Maniac. At the time, even in that search, ORAS Hex Maniac outnumbered RSE Hex Maniac, and even now it's only just about balanced between ORAS Hex Maniac and RSE Hex Maniac in that search if you count the former cosplaying as the latter in the latter's favor.

That is to say, RSE Hex Maniac's tag was made explicitly as an exception, not as an example to be used, because of Hex Maniac's specific circumstances.

That search is one page, it's only nine more posts than using the tag. That tag is not helping you find anything that the two tag search doesn't already. That argument would make sense if we were talking about a search that returned several pages, and the character being looked for was only a small percentage of it, but neither are true. Unless the search was originally much larger than it is now, and I can't imagine how it could have been unless there was serious tag pollution going on, especially given that the most popular Hex Maniac originated in X&Y and is almost exclusively associated with Pokemon xy and not Pokemon oras, there was never any reason for this tag to exist except to solve a problem that didn't actually exist.

Edit: Apparently we've already gone ahead and created hex maniac (pokemon legends: z-a) manually.

Updated

proof150 said:

BUR #38165 is pending approval.

mass update hex_maniac_(pokemon) pokemon_legends:_z-a -> hex_maniac_(pokemon_legends:_z-a)

Pokémon Legends: Z-A is set 50 years in the future relative to Pokémon X and Y, so the version of Hex Maniac seen in the trailer for that game is actually a new character (in as much as Hex was ever a character) and should be tagged as such rather than an alternate costume.

Where this "50 years" came from? The trailer says nothing, serebii says nothing, Bulbapedia say nothing, all we know is that is at least after XY because ZA has his Floette back with him but there is not a single instance of years been mentioned.

blindVigil said:

I think all of these game specific tags are completely superfluous and there's no reason for Pokémon to be an exception to standard character tag policy. The only new tags I'd support are male and female tags for the Ace Trainers, since I'm surprised we hadn't already done that.

100% agree with this.

Obst said:

100% agree with this.

100% disagree with this.

The main reason it wasn't done before has been because the main Pokémon uploaders say it shouldn't and I think that's silly. Doubly so when you consider the gender split NPC classes being kept under one tag.

Lass is a better example than Hex Maniac. Since she's been in every mainline game and several spinoffs, there're a dozen unique designs for the character from the games alone, then additional anime and manga versions. All in one tag that is only searchable via combining copytags with the chartag. pc88 says that the rule is that we do that, but that's never been a rule, but merely a tagging practice enforced by a handful of our most prolific 'mon uploaders/taggers. The soft guideline put forward by Evazion in forum #304070 is "If it's a unique design and it has more than one post, it should get a tag."

Copytags should not be the stand-in for character and costume tagging.

For what it's worth, I'm the one who created the tag for the Z-A Hex Maniac because I wasn't aware of this policy and had tagged her as a new character. The posts got updated with the general tag, and I saw the tag for RSE Hex Maniac and thought that tagging different iterations of the same Trainer Class was standard policy, so I made this bulk update request.

Apparently another user went and updated everything with the new character tag manually.

Veraducks said:

100% disagree with this.

The main reason it wasn't done before has been because the main Pokémon uploaders say it shouldn't and I think that's silly. Doubly so when you consider the gender split NPC classes being kept under one tag.

Lass is a better example than Hex Maniac. Since she's been in every mainline game and several spinoffs, there're a dozen unique designs for the character from the games alone, then additional anime and manga versions. All in one tag that is only searchable via combining copytags with the chartag. pc88 says that the rule is that we do that, but that's never been a rule, but merely a tagging practice enforced by a handful of our most prolific 'mon uploaders/taggers. The soft guideline put forward by Evazion in forum #304070 is "If it's a unique design and it has more than one post, it should get a tag."

Copytags should not be the stand-in for character and costume tagging.

Did you consider that the reason the "Pokemon uploader cabal" enforced this "rule" is because it's been site wide standard policy for the entirety of the site's lifetime? Or that the evazion post you linked is being taken out of context?

Evazion is arguing against the absurd notion of asking users to find popular character designs, official or not, using General tags when the site does nothing to even indicate that as being an option. In that context, he's 110% correct. It's exactly the same as one of the arguments used to justify the gacha game outfit tags. It's also why tags like Yomako and Space Yoko are allowed to exist. A cobbled together General tag search should not be the primary way to find an entire outfit or character design that we know people are going to come here looking for.

We're not talking about General tags, though, we're talking about Copyright tags. "Character + copyright" has always been the accepted method of looking for designs that differ between copyrights. Unlike general tags, it's usually extremely reliable, rendering a character tag for every character/copyright search as a redundant combo tag. That's not something unique to Pokemon tagging, and I don't think having "dozens of unique designs" is a very compelling argument when every single one of them has an associated copyright tag.

If we actually look at these tags, lass (pokemon swsh), the largest Lass subtag and having more than double the second largest, has 109 posts. Lass_(pokemon) pokemon_swsh has 152, and Lass_(pokemon) pokemon_swsh -lass_(pokemon_swsh) has 44. Almost every post in that last search qualifies for lass (pokemon swsh), leaving at best 10 false positives for Lass_(pokemon) pokemon_swsh. That's a noise percentage of less than 10%. That's what all of them look like.

These tags are glorified combo tags. I don't believe there's any reason to expect that users can't figure out the copyright searching policy we've been using for over a decade. Copyright tags are not invisible in a sea of blue, and I expect anyone coming here looking for the newest fan favorite NPC everyone is drawing porn of is at least smart enough to figure out that they can easily find their goon material by using the correct copyright tag.

What you're arguing for is making character tags for every return character in every new entry to their series and their debut entry. Every single series with more than a single entry will have a bare minimum of two character tags, with half of those character tags being redundant with a very easy to parse two tag search. You're literally doubling the character count indiscriminately on all posts. As much as there's no good argument for Pokemon doing this, there's equally lacking reason for this to stop at Pokemon, either. If it's a good idea for Pokemon, then it's a good idea for everyone. Any arguments for why Pokemon should do this and no one else would be no different from the nonsense "minimum post count" evazion was arguing against in the thread you linked.

blindVigil said:

What you're arguing for is making character tags for every return character in every new entry to their series and their debut entry.

I am indeed. There's a boatload of holes in this policy that get wider as the site, tagging practices, and games evolve.

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