How should we handle Shin Megami Tensei implications?

Shin Megami Tensei is a franchise with a lot of spin-offs. Right now the only tags that imply the main SMT tag are the games that have Shin Megami Tensei in their titles (including Shin Megami Tensei Devil Children, which should not in fact be titled SMT).
The question is if we should imply all these spin-offs to the main SMT tag. Right now there are several images tagged as Devil Summoner or Devil Survivor without an SMT tag, so an implication would bring them all together.
The biggest issue would be the Persona, a spin-off that grew so big that it overshadowed the original and gained a life of its own. If we imply it then most SMT posts would suddenly be Persona posts, so maybe it should be excluded?

On a related note, the Megami Tensei tag is useless. Its only possible utility would be to tag the NES games (which were called Megami Tensei without the Shin), but only a handful of posts do that, and it's otherwise redundant with Shin Megami Tensei.

BaiserLaVerite said:

On a related note, the Megami Tensei tag is useless. Its only possible utility would be to tag the NES games (which were called Megami Tensei without the Shin), but only a handful of posts do that, and it's otherwise redundant with Shin Megami Tensei.

What about tagging stuff related to the Digital Devil Story novels? The wiki discusses the novels moreso than it does the NES games.

I really don't want Devil Summoner, DDS, Devil Survivor etc. to imply Shin Megami Tensei

Shin Megami Tensei is necessary for distinguishing the mainline games and posts focusing mostly on demons

if those spinoff series really need to imply Shin Megami Tensei, then I would like another distinct Shin Megami Tensei (mainline) tag populated or something that also implies the master Shin Megami Tensei tag

.. but that's just too much pointless implication layering and work populating posts, when what we have already works perfectly fine for danbooru browsing/posting purposes

Persona implying Shin Megami Tensei is especially out of the question bc no one wants to subtract Persona from the search everytime they want to see mainline SMT stuff. and really I don't think it should get unique treatment in the sense that some people like me mostly just want to browse mainline content - I also don't want to subtract Devil Summoner (series) everytime I don't want to see dozens of pictures of Raidou while browsing mainline stuff

I think Megami Tensei existing and doubling as a tag for the NES games and novels are fine as is. though it might be a confusing name currently to those unfamiliar. maybe should be renamed Megami Tensei (original) or Megami Tensei (NES) idk

c_spl said:

I think Megami Tensei existing and doubling as a tag for the NES games and novels are fine as is. though it might be a confusing name currently to those unfamiliar. maybe should be renamed Megami Tensei (original) or Megami Tensei (NES) idk

Regardless of what we do, I think it would make a lot of sense to take away the MegaTen alias it has and giving it to Shin Megami Tensei instead.

at least from my experience "Megaten" colloquially is used for referring to anything in the entire franchise in general including Persona.

that alias works better for Shin Megami Tensei than Megami Tensei anyhow yeah. I just also see it used for all the spinoff series as well

Damian0358 said:

What about tagging stuff related to the Digital Devil Story novels? The wiki discusses the novels moreso than it does the NES games.

I made a Digital Devil Story tag today. It should be noted that the full name of the NES games is in fact Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei, same as the first novel.

c_spl said:

I really don't want Devil Summoner, DDS, Devil Survivor etc. to imply Shin Megami Tensei

Shin Megami Tensei is necessary for distinguishing the mainline games and posts focusing mostly on demons

if those spinoff series really need to imply Shin Megami Tensei, then I would like another distinct Shin Megami Tensei (mainline) tag populated or something that also implies the master Shin Megami Tensei tag

.. but that's just too much pointless implication layering and work populating posts, when what we have already works perfectly fine for danbooru browsing/posting purposes

Persona implying Shin Megami Tensei is especially out of the question bc no one wants to subtract Persona from the search everytime they want to see mainline SMT stuff. and really I don't think it should get unique treatment in the sense that some people like me mostly just want to browse mainline content - I also don't want to subtract Devil Summoner (series) everytime I don't want to see dozens of pictures of Raidou while browsing mainline stuff

I think Megami Tensei existing and doubling as a tag for the NES games and novels are fine as is. though it might be a confusing name currently to those unfamiliar. maybe should be renamed Megami Tensei (original) or Megami Tensei (NES) idk

How about repurposing Megami Tensei as the parent tag of the whole franchise? In that case Shin Megami Tensei would only be used for the mainline titles and its characters, while Persona, Devil Summoner, etc would imply Megami Tensei. For example, a pic depicting only a demon and nothing else would be tagged as just Megami Tensei, while Shin Megami Tensei would only be used for pics depicting characters such as Demi-fiend, Flynn, etc.

BaiserLaVerite said:

I made a Digital Devil Story tag today. It should be noted that the full name of the NES games is in fact Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei, same as the first novel.

I mean, they are, but given that Megami Tensei II diverges from the novels, we would have to institute some sort of separation, like moving the current Megami Tensei wiki to Digital Devil Story and making a brand new Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei (Famicom) tag for stuff that explicitly references the first Famicom game.

How about repurposing Megami Tensei as the parent tag of the whole franchise? In that case Shin Megami Tensei would only be used for the mainline titles and its characters, while Persona, Devil Summoner, etc would imply Megami Tensei. For example, a pic depicting only a demon and nothing else would be tagged as just Megami Tensei, while Shin Megami Tensei would only be used for pics depicting characters such as Demi-fiend, Flynn, etc.

We'd need to do some sort of clean-up surrounding the tag first and foremost.

BaiserLaVerite said:

I made a Digital Devil Story tag today. It should be noted that the full name of the NES games is in fact Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei, same as the first novel.

How about repurposing Megami Tensei as the parent tag of the whole franchise? In that case Shin Megami Tensei would only be used for the mainline titles and its characters, while Persona, Devil Summoner, etc would imply Megami Tensei. For example, a pic depicting only a demon and nothing else would be tagged as just Megami Tensei, while Shin Megami Tensei would only be used for pics depicting characters such as Demi-fiend, Flynn, etc.

yeah that approach is also fine. at that point the novels and NES games should definitely be split with qualifiers. and then SMT (mainline), Persona, DDS, DevSurv, DevSumm, Majin Tensei, etc. can all imply Megami Tensei. each can be browsed individually

I've gone ahead and moved the Megami Tensei wiki over to Digital Devil Story, with the wiki also having a link ready for Megami Tensei (Famicom). Whoever is going to clean up the Megami Tensei tag in preparation of turning it into a franchise copytag should also update the wikis where relevant (ex. moving the listed spin-off games in Shin Megami Tensei over to a new Megami Tensei wiki, updating other wikis which mention Megami Tensei, etc).

I made the Megami Tensei franchise wiki and updated Shin Megami Tensei to reflect it only being used for mainline. Wikis that link to Megami Tensei seem to make sense doing so (mostly just demon wikis). Please look over and make any changes if needed

Next step I assume is to populate & create a wiki for Megami Tensei (Famicom) I guess. Didn't play the NES games (or the SNES games for that matter) so I'm not confident in doing so myself

Then implying to Megami Tensei all of: Shin Megami Tensei, Digital Devil Story, Megami Tensei (Famicom), Megami Tensei II and all the branch/spinoff series listed in Megami Tensei should be fine

I feel like Megami Tensei II should get renamed to Megami Tensei II (Famicom) as well

I think Persona should at least imply Megami Tensei especially with all the overlap for the non-human characters.

Based on Wikipedia, it's actually possibly more correct, at least nowadays, to say it's a spinoff of megami tensei but not SMT. Even though the first game or two was initially SMT: Persona.

But some confusion stems from the wider franchise still being "SMT" internationally while it's been shortened to "Megami Tensei" in the localization except when referring to the games themselves

anyway if you made BURs to imply persona -> megaten i'd upvote

Damian0358 said:

We'd need to do some sort of clean-up surrounding the tag first and foremost.

Should I add the pics to have the SMT tag removed into a favgroup? Or just remove the tag directly?

BaiserLaVerite said:

Should I add the pics to have the SMT tag removed into a favgroup? Or just remove the tag directly?

removing them directly is fine. but for demons the copyright tag should ideally be where that design debuted in. if it's from SMT1, 2, etc. just keep the Shin Megami Tensei as the tag. sometimes it'll be from Devil Summoner (series) too

I'll also help with removing or keeping those in the coming weeks. I think all the Megami Tensei implications can be done before anyhow

BUR #37923 is pending approval.

create implication digital_devil_story -> megami_tensei
create implication megami_tensei_(famicom) -> megami_tensei
create implication megami_tensei_ii -> megami_tensei
create implication kyuuyaku_megami_tensei -> megami_tensei
create implication shin_megami_tensei -> megami_tensei
create implication devil_summoner_(series) -> megami_tensei
create implication digital_devil_saga -> megami_tensei
create implication last_bible -> megami_tensei
create implication majin_tensei -> megami_tensei
create implication persona -> megami_tensei
remove implication shin_megami_tensei_devil_children -> shin_megami_tensei
create implication shin_megami_tensei_devil_children -> megami_tensei

per discussion and changed wikis above

To do:

• populate Digital Devil Story (original novels), Megami Tensei (Famicom), Megami Tensei II (ideally qualify Megami Tensei II to Megami Tensei II (Famicom) or something)
• Devil Survivor and Devil Survivor 2 should be put under a Devil Survivor (series) tag or something (for consistency maybe rename Devil Survivor to Devil Survivor 1 and then the series tag can just be Devil Survivor with no qualifier). then this series needs to be implied like the others needs further discussion below
• the copyright tags for Demon (Megami Tensei) posts needs to be gardened. they should usually be where that demon design debuted in unless there's enough context to suggest something else (e.g. tagging SMT5 for Zeus (megami tensei) and not Strange Journey because he's paired with Odin's SMT5 design in the post)

For now I'll just populate Devil Survivor (series) to keep consistency with Devil Summoner (series). The first game can then be renamed to either devil_survivor_1 or devil_survivor_(game) (as per Devil Summoner (game)).

BUR #38598 is pending approval.

remove implication devil_survivor_2 -> devil_survivor
create alias devil_survivor -> devil_survivor_1
create implication devil_survivor_1 -> devil_survivor_(series)
create implication devil_survivor_2 -> devil_survivor_(series)
create implication devil_survivor_(series) -> megami_tensei

per the few comments above

for some context, the Devil Survivor games is a duology of games consisting of Devil Survivor 1 and Devil Survivor 2. Devil Survivor with no qualifier has been used for the first game. and the second game's tag Devil Survivor 2 directly implies the first game.

this BUR is to make the Devil Survivor tags work more like the Octopath Traveler series or something. i.e. Devil Survivor 2 doesn't need to imply the first game's tag. while DS2 is a sequel it's not that exceedingly related enough that it needs to imply the first game and the series as a whole can be treated like an anthology with a series tag (Devil Survivor (series) which was already made and wiki'd).

(similar logic kind of applies to why Pokemon BW2 doesn't imply Pokemon BW, and why Octopath Traveler II doesn't imply Octopath Traveler I)

I think Devil Survivor 1 will need to at least be made with a wiki before that implication can even go through but IDK

c_spl said:

I think Devil Survivor 1 will need to at least be made with a wiki before that implication can even go through but IDK

No need, the way the BUR is right now, Devil Survivor's current wiki would become Devil Survivor 1's wiki before the implication goes through.

Why did you create yet another *_(series) umbrella tag when devil_survivor would've sufficed?

Hillside_Moose said:

Why did you create yet another *_(series) umbrella tag when devil_survivor would've sufficed?

Mostly to remain consistent with Devil Summoner (series). I think it makes a clear distinction between the first game and the series to avoid mistagging.