(which I'm probably asking too late, but oh well):
If there is a tag which is commonly used in situations directly excluded by the definition in the wiki entry, what should be changed: the tags on the posts (which are incorrect) or the definition (which appears to be becoming obsolete)?
Mod edit (posting his question from later in the thread): Well, the first one I saw was short_hair being used a lot for male characters. I mean, I can see why the definition would exclude male characters, since there tends to be less extreme variation in hair length for men than women. But I only know that short_hair isn't supposed to be used for male characters because being new, I'm extra tenterhooky and cautious at the moment; it's not intuitive.
jxh2154 said: You'd have to bring it up here first so we can decide. I'm sure the answer is "it depends".
Well, the first one I saw was short_hair being used a lot for male characters. I mean, I can see why the definition would exclude male characters, since there tends to be less extreme variation in hair length for men than women. But I only know that short_hair isn't supposed to be used for male characters because being new, I'm extra tenterhooky and cautious at the moment; it's not intuitive.
...and I just realized that you were probably speaking generally, rather than suggesting that I bring up an example /here/. Same results, I suppose; apologies.
Yeah; whenever I see or add a tag that seems applicable to an image, and then notice that's it's the only post with that tag, I usually just end-up removing it.
I've edited this thread to reflect your question about short_hair. If you have other tags you're curious about, I address that below.
chainedwind said: ...and I just realized that you were probably speaking generally, rather than suggesting that I bring up an example /here/. Same results, I suppose; apologies.
I should have clarified that by "here" I mean the forums. When a tag seems to be ambiguous either in definition or use or the intersection of both, please create a new thread with a subject line like "Tag Discussion: [tag name]" and raise your concerns.
Then we can discuss it and if we're lucky get more than two people to agree on how to proceed and we might be able to clear up use or definition or both.
Of course the bigger, older, and more complex the tag, the more impossible it gets to enact meaningful change because it tends to have ripple effects that affect the use of a lot of other tags. It just gets very complicated.
But your question about short_hair is pretty straightforward. The wiki is indeed clear, do not tag males with this. If people are tagging it on males, they are wrong and the tag should be removed. Unless for some reason we decide to change the definition - which I'd advise against.
It looks like memegui came up with the wiki definition on his own (or I can't find any record of it ever being discussed) and I can't think of a good reason why this tag should exclude anyone.
Log said: It looks like memegui came up with the wiki definition on his own (or I can't find any record of it ever being discussed) and I can't think of a good reason why this tag should exclude anyone.
A reasonable motivation for excluding male characters seems to be that most male characters tend have short hair. If that holds true, then it would be similar to the motivation for (from what I've read) not having a "female" tag.
Log said: To me that's like saying "most touhou characters have short hair so don't tag them with short hair!!" vOv
I... don't know about touhou characters, but like I said, similar reasoning appears to have been employed for at least one other situation on Danbooru.
I dunno. You could just say that short hair for males is different than it is for girls. A guy with just some fuzz on his head or whatever has short hair by any reasonable definition. So it's not like we can't meaningfully apply the tag to males, period.
The real question is whether it makes it more or less useful that way. My gut feeling is that when people search on that tag, they're probably looking for short feminine haircuts (which should include traps). And no, just using -male or some such thing wouldn't work, because you might have (say) a guy and a girl in a pic, with the girl having short hair. So I don't think expanding it to non-trap guys is useful (though perhaps the wiki should note that it does cover anyone who appears to be a girl, including traps.)
Yes, but that would have stopped him from making a cheap shot at Touhou, and we can't have THAT.
I think that its probably worth coming up with a tag for the "buzz cut" style haircut for guys that Xabid mentioned (assuming we don't), since that would be "short" hair for a guy.
Fencedude said: I think that its probably worth coming up with a tag for the "buzz cut" style haircut for guys that Xabid mentioned (assuming we don't), since that would be "short" hair for a guy.
I'd imagine buzz_cut should be that tag then. Seems a better solution than adding short_hair to the vast majority of images on danbooru with males.
Fencedude said: Yes, but that would have stopped him from making a cheap shot at Touhou, and we can't have THAT.
Way to fail to read the rest of my post. 1/4 of all touhou images are tagged short hair and 1/4 of all short hair images are from touhou.
e: A buzz cut is a buzz cut. Somewhere around 75% of the male images have Kagamine Len length hair. This hair is not long it is both by logical and danbooru definition short hair. It is most definitely not long or any other length.
Log, if 75% of the images in the male tag have short hair...doesn't that explain why its not really necessary to tag it, and instead tag the EXCEPTIONS? And save short hair for tagging female images, where the proportion is lower, thus making it a more defining aspect?
e: I guess I should type more here. finding "males without short hair" is impossible currently without multiple exclusions and even then buzz cuts aren't tagged so those will still show up.
e: A buzz cut is a buzz cut. Somewhere around 75% of the male images have Kagamine Len length hair. This hair is not long it is both by logical and danbooru definition short hair. It is most definitely not long or any other length.
Interesting. Perhaps I'm bringing too much of a real-world attitude into this, but generally if a guy's hair is long enough to tie into a ponytail, I consider it to be long. But of course such things would be somewhat YMMV.
Log said: exclusion searches????
I'm definitely speaking from a biased perspective here: when one is limited to two tags per search, adding in a bunch of exclusions is not exactly conducive to effective searching.
e: I guess I should type more here. finding "males without short hair" is impossible currently without multiple exclusions and even then buzz cuts aren't tagged so those will still show up.
