Disclaimer: this is not to be approved until gardening is finished
Demon as a tag (and wiki) is terrible. @Squidpuffer brought it up on #taggging and zetsubousensei and Fuuf agreed a BUR should be raised to nuke+ deprecate it. Demon_girl and demon_boy already covers humans with demonlike traits/incubus/succubus etc
To fix this we created demonic_creature for inhuman monsters that somehwat represent Abrahamic style demons, squidpuffer has already added 3~ pages worth of applicable posts to the tag. Wiki has been created too.
To add to this the wiki for demon specifies that it is for "A non-human character with a demonic appearance" which is rather ambiguous because it ranges from normal looking characters who are canonically demons post #8894 and post #6953275, classical demons like beezlbub post #761928 and baphomet post #4640951. And finally a sprinkling of random other fan art of creatures who fit the mold like post #893951 or post #6014905
I see no reason to keep a tag this broad. Most of the posts seemingly belong in demon_boy or demon_girl. I personally think if the "canon demons" are removed there is a large overlap with monster, but I'm not against a traditional demon tag so demonic creature is a better alternative than demon as it's more focused and less prone to mistags.
I don't like the name because creature is used for fictional animals that aren't monstrous, if you're aiming for monsters. I agree with deprecating demon, but not nuking it before moving the posts to other tags.
This. Nuking it would prevent migrating the images currently tagged demon and just add additional work.
Was mentioned in the discord but it should not be approved until we have finished cleaning it out. Squid is already on the case and I will help him review. He committed to fixing this tag
I don't like the name because creature is used for fictional animals that aren't monstrous, if you're aiming for monsters. I agree with deprecating demon, but not nuking it before moving the posts to other tags.
Regarding the name, then what do you suggest then? It must be explicit enough some bozo won’t tag a human as it.
Regarding the name, then what do you suggest then? It must be explicit enough some bozo won’t tag a human as it.
Idk, if you want it to be a subset of monster I'd suggest demonic_monster. Currently the tag is also populated with chibi illusts of debidebi debiru, which I consider to be more like creature.
If this goes through, then we completely lose the ability to search for/tag demonic humanoid characters that aren't boys or girls. I'd actually much rather see demon's definition broadened, so it becomes a catch-all tag for any demonic character.
As an aside, I think that a tag for non-humanoid demons like the Cacodemon is a good idea, but not as a complete replacement for the demon tag.
Heartcatcher said:
I didn't even realize it was meant for non-humanoid creatures, so I support this
This reply perfectly illustrates how, if you search Google for "demon" (while excluding all the random Demon Slayer results), you'll see that this is yet another instance of Danbooru's definition conflicting with everyone else's - outside of Danbooru, the term "demon" is quite commonly visualized as a humanoid figure. We are the only ones going "umm ackshually, demon is only for inhuman monsters". If anyone who hadn't read the demon wiki wanted to search for demons, they'd search for "demon" and expect to find stuff like post #5273791, post #7738127 and post #3885668 all in the same search.
If this goes through, then we completely lose the ability to search for/tag demonic humanoid characters that aren't boys or girls. I'd actually much rather see demon's definition broadened, so it becomes a catch-all tag for any demonic character.
furry other was already killed so i dont think the chance of a demon other happening is very good
If you search Google for "demon" (while excluding all the random Demon Slayer results), you'll see that this is yet another instance of Danbooru's definition conflicting with everyone else's - outside of Danbooru, the term "demon" is quite commonly visualized as a humanoid figure. We are the only ones going "umm ackshually, demon is only for inhuman monsters". If anyone who hadn't read the demon wiki wanted to search for demons, they'd search for "demon" and expect to find stuff like post #5273791, post #7738127 and post #3885668 all in the same search.
the issue here is that average people dont want to creampie femsatan but danbooru had to make demon boy and demon girl for those people, leaving the demon tag without a clear purpose
this sounds good but in reality people see helltaker girls and think DEMON so it will be an endless task of cleaning out every 2 bit demon vtuber and oc from the demon tag demon* under the new system would get girls boys n creatures
furry other was already killed so i dont think the chance of a demon other happening is very good
The problem with demon other is that it would just be slapped by retards on androgynous cartoon characters from series like Hazbin Hotel.
I think what he's actually suggesting is something like non-humanoid demon or the existing demonic creature, which I suppose would be a subset of monster. A way to filter for actual traditional demons (and we can't even have traditional demon as a tag because even a humanoid figure like classical Lucifer is a traditional demon/devil).
furry other was already killed so i dont think the chance of a demon other happening is very good
I know; that's one of the reasons why it's better not to rid ourselves of demon.
the issue here is that average people dont want to creampie femsatan but danbooru had to make demon boy and demon girl for those people, leaving the demon tag without a clear purpose
I know; that's why I outlined a clear purpose for it.
this sounds good but in reality people see helltaker girls and think DEMON so it will be an endless task of cleaning out every 2 bit demon vtuber and oc from the demon tag
Tags requiring maintenance is nothing new. In the beginning it's generally a bit rocky, but once a tag's usage becomes established, it generally settles down. We didn't nuke braided_ponytail just because Genshin posts severely fucked it up, instead we fixed it.
demon* under the new system would get girls boys n creatures
I know. That search would include content such as post #7626029 and post #7564785, making it unsuitable to search for actually demonic characters.
The problem with demon other is that it would just be slapped by retards on androgynous cartoon characters from series like Hazbin Hotel.
I think what he's actually suggesting is something like non-humanoid demon or the existing demonic creature, which I suppose would be a subset of monster. A way to filter for actual traditional demons (and we can't even have traditional demon as a tag because even a humanoid figure like classical Lucifer is a traditional demon/devil).
demonic creature was created today for the sake of this thread, since demon has no chance of actually being a usuable tag the reason for creature rather than another word was because monster has a specific image in peoples minds and things like deviruchi dont fit into that
AngryZapdos said:
I know; that's one of the reasons why it's better not to rid ourselves of demon.
an umbrella tag for 2 humanoids and 1 nonhumanoid would be worthless, we dont have doglike_being for dogboys doggirls and dogs
I know; that's why I outlined a clear purpose for it.
i dont see how that fixes the tag
Tags requiring maintenance is nothing new. In the beginning it's generally a bit rocky, but once a tag's usage becomes established, it generally settles down. We didn't nuke braided_ponytail just because Genshin posts severely fucked it up, instead we fixed it.
nobody looks forward to cleaning dogshit tags so it almost never gets done cough cough color_serafuku cough cough
I know. That search would include content such as post #7626029 and post #7564785, making it unsuitable to search for actually demonic characters.
then we start adding additional tags for additional features, like imagine that furry scale post but for demons where instead of getting animal hands and animal feet they get red skin and black sclera and scales
an umbrella tag for 2 humanoids and 1 nonhumanoid would be worthless, we dont have doglike_being for dogboys doggirls and dogs
i dont see how that fixes the tag
That's because the word "dog" on its own does not and has never had the connotation of "doglike humanoid figure". It's always been for just the animal. "Demon", on the other hand, is and has often been used to describe humanlike figures. If you'd read my post instead of skimming it for gotcha moments, you'd know that.
nobody looks forward to cleaning dogshit tags so it almost never gets done cough cough color_serafuku cough cough
Don't worry, I'm not expecting you to be one of the tag's gardeners.
That's because the word "dog" on its own does not and has never had the connotation of "doglike humanoid figure". It's always been for just the animal. "Demon", on the other hand, is and has often been used to describe humanlike figures. If you'd read my post instead of skimming it for gotcha moments, you'd know that.
Don't worry, I'm not expecting you to be one of the tag's gardeners.
i did read your post and found it lacking of anything actually worth considering to be a valid solution, much like you ignore my points definition changes of an ambiguously named tag dont work, what works is changing tag names and deprecation
i did read your post and found it lacking of anything actually worth considering to be a valid solution, much like you ignore my points definition changes of an ambiguously named tag dont work, what works is changing tag names and deprecation
The only reason demon is ambiguous right now is because Danbooru's definition is different from the real-world usage of the word. You're not advocating for changing the tag's name, you're advocating for its destruction at the cost of searchability. There should be an easy way to search for demons in general, and deprecating the tag is a large step in the opposite direction of this goal.
The only reason demon is ambiguous right now is because Danbooru's definition is different from the real-world usage of the word. You're not advocating for changing the tag's name, you're advocating for its destruction at the cost of searchability. There should be an easy way to search for demons in general, and deprecating the tag is a large step in the opposite direction of this goal.
so you want a way to search for "demoic appearance" as a general concept, i understand that, but the current tag is unusable for that purpose and in my experience trying to enforce a standard for a generically named tag like demon is sisyphean i want to spliit demonic creature off to be for non-humanoid demons, and then users can search for the other appearance tags to fulfill humanoid demons and i dont see the value in a generic "demoic appearance" tag when the goals of those two searches are very different
we had a similar issue with youkai because people kept tagging lore-youkai characters with youkai even when they looked nothing like the original youkai they were based on, and we fixed that with traditional youkai this is the same issue, where people think that tagging demon on a character with horns is ok, when we already have other tags that fulfill that role
