Every (plus 10 posts) missing bird implication in the bird tag group.

skylightcrystal said:

There are 49 posts in total with either kingfisher as the tag or a kingfisher species. 44 out of 49 either are or appear to be common kingfisher. The other 5 are other species and have their species tags.

Kingfisher species do look quite distinctive from one another. You might need to know a bit about birds to tell which is which outside of the familiar common kingfisher but this isn't a group where your average person would struggle to tell them apart as is the case with, for instance, arctic tern and roseate tern. It's funny we have both of those tags when none of the birds in arctic tern are visibly identifiable as such from the image, unlike with the kingfishers where just about all of them are.

Maybe we could keep common kingfisher and nuke kingfisher after making sure all posts have the appropriate species tag. That way, we'll solve the overlap problem without sacrificing the ability to find common kingfishers specifically. We don't know if common kingfisher will still be the majority kingfisher tag a few years from now, so keeping the tag will ensure they remain searchable. The general kingfisher group would still be searchable with *_kingfisher, which would make the current kingfisher tag superfluous.

The downside is that it may be a bit harder to tag specific species instead of kingfisher, but if the user knows enough about birds to identify it as a kingfisher, they'll probably be able to identify the species pretty easily after a bit of research.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

BUR #21589 has been rejected.

Show

remove implication chicken -> bird
remove implication cockatiel -> bird
remove implication cockatoo -> bird
remove implication crane_(animal) -> bird
remove implication crow -> bird
remove implication cuckoo -> bird
remove implication daurian_redstart -> bird
remove implication dove -> bird
remove implication duck -> bird
remove implication eagle -> bird
remove implication falcon -> bird
remove implication finch -> bird
remove implication flamingo -> bird
remove implication frogmouth -> bird
remove implication goose -> bird
remove implication hawk -> bird
remove implication heron -> bird
remove implication hummingbird -> bird
remove implication japanese_white-eye -> bird
remove implication java_sparrow -> bird
remove implication kiwi_(bird) -> bird
remove implication nightingale_(bird) -> bird
remove implication ostrich -> bird
remove implication owl -> bird
remove implication parakeet -> bird
remove implication parrot -> bird
remove implication peacock -> bird
remove implication pelican -> bird
remove implication penguin -> bird
remove implication pheasant -> bird
remove implication pigeon -> bird
remove implication plover_(animal) -> bird
remove implication puffin -> bird
remove implication seagull -> bird
remove implication secretarybird -> bird
remove implication shoebill -> bird
remove implication sparrow -> bird
remove implication stork -> bird
remove implication swallow_(bird) -> bird
remove implication swan -> bird
remove implication toucan -> bird
remove implication vulture -> bird

This BUR pains me greatly. I, too, wish there was a way for bird species to simply imply bird. However, as outlined with the unfortunate animal girls and furries, there's no way to have that without also making a ton of related kemonomimi/furry tags. Therefore, if that's the case, the current species implications need to go as well.

Absolutely not. This will completely mess up tagging with new uploads and makes no sense. That's like the dress implication from red dress. Kemononos (from what I've seen in kemono friends) are not tagged with the species unless the naimal itself is also present. Besides, in the case anthro pics I'd say it actually makes sense to keep, as one can put "-furry" or just blacklist furry.

As zetsubousensei said way back

zetsubousensei said:
we have penguin girl and other more specific tags so I dont think the main animal tags should be held hostage by kemonomomimi.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

BUR #21589 has been rejected.

Show

remove implication chicken -> bird
remove implication cockatiel -> bird
remove implication cockatoo -> bird
remove implication crane_(animal) -> bird
remove implication crow -> bird
remove implication cuckoo -> bird
remove implication daurian_redstart -> bird
remove implication dove -> bird
remove implication duck -> bird
remove implication eagle -> bird
remove implication falcon -> bird
remove implication finch -> bird
remove implication flamingo -> bird
remove implication frogmouth -> bird
remove implication goose -> bird
remove implication hawk -> bird
remove implication heron -> bird
remove implication hummingbird -> bird
remove implication japanese_white-eye -> bird
remove implication java_sparrow -> bird
remove implication kiwi_(bird) -> bird
remove implication nightingale_(bird) -> bird
remove implication ostrich -> bird
remove implication owl -> bird
remove implication parakeet -> bird
remove implication parrot -> bird
remove implication peacock -> bird
remove implication pelican -> bird
remove implication penguin -> bird
remove implication pheasant -> bird
remove implication pigeon -> bird
remove implication plover_(animal) -> bird
remove implication puffin -> bird
remove implication seagull -> bird
remove implication secretarybird -> bird
remove implication shoebill -> bird
remove implication sparrow -> bird
remove implication stork -> bird
remove implication swallow_(bird) -> bird
remove implication swan -> bird
remove implication toucan -> bird
remove implication vulture -> bird

This BUR pains me greatly. I, too, wish there was a way for bird species to simply imply bird. However, as outlined with the unfortunate animal girls and furries, there's no way to have that without also making a ton of related kemonomimi/furry tags. Therefore, if that's the case, the current species implications need to go as well.

Admins voting for this @Unbreakable PLEASE reconsider this. It's screwing over the wast majority of posts for an extreme minority. Furry posts make up a minuscule percentage of the posts tagged bird and most of the time with animal girls and furries people don't tag the species.
https://danbooru.donmai.us/related_tag?commit=Search&search%5Border%5D=Overlap&search%5Bquery%5D=bird

Kemono friends is literally half a percentage of bird posts
https://danbooru.donmai.us/related_tag?commit=Search&search%5Bcategory%5D=Copyright&search%5Border%5D=Frequency&search%5Bquery%5D=bird

Just take a look at the most common birds:

With and without furry tags blacklisted (furry, costume and kemono_friends)

Chicken: 207 pages, 4100 posts
chicken furry: 3 pages
chicken costume: 1 page, 4 posts 2 of which have actual chickens post #2586392 (It's the chicken wearing a costume...) post #5712716
chicken kemono_friends: 1 page, 3 posts

Duck: 202 pages, 4000 posts
duck furry: 4 pages
duck costume: 1 page, 5 posts. 2 of which has actual ducks. post #5712716 <- same post as in chicken costume, post #295506
duck kemono_friends: 1 page, 14 posts, many actual ducks

Seagull: 196 pages, 3900 posts
seagull furry: 2 pages, most of which are furries on beach with actual gulls. Eg, post #5878483 post #5475508
seagull costume: 1 page, 1 post
seagull kemono_friends: 1 page, 20 posts

Eagle: 91 pages, 1800 posts
eagle furry: 1 page, 17 posts
eagle costume: 1 page, 1 post, has braviary. post #2586637
eagle kemono_friends: 1 page, 13 posts

Pigeon: 54 pages, 1100 posts
pigeon furry: 1 page, 13 posts
pigeon costume: 1 page, 1 post
pigeon kemono_friends: 1 page. 9 posts. Mostly actual pigeon. post #6290116 post #5101986 post #4239823 post #3004718 post #2941851 post #4329757

What's really missing is the animal tag for most of them NOT making it even more inaccurate by removing the bird implication when people upload (since most apparently remember not to tag kemonos with the species but forget to tag actual animals with animal.)

Better readability outside collapsible.

Thanks excel! and online table generators because I am NOT typing all that shit in dtext manually. I couldn't be fucked to calculate percentage for all of them.

War6t2 said:

Absolutely not. This will completely mess up tagging with new uploads and makes no sense. That's like the dress implication from red dress. Kemononos (from what I've seen in kemono friends) are not tagged with the species unless the naimal itself is also present. Besides, in the case anthro pics I'd say it actually makes sense to keep, as one can put "-furry" or just blacklist furry.

Kemono Friends aren't tagged with the animal they're based on because they would just end up flooding those tags, and they have their own character tags so they're not hard to find in the first place. The issue is with original designs, where the only logical way to tag and search for them is by tagging the species they're based on.

Blacklisting furry doesn't fix the problem because furries appearing in searches isn't the problem. The problem is that these implications will cause posts that don't actually feature birds, dogs, cats, ect. to be tagged with those animals when they aren't present, which is bad tagging. We always try to avoid implications that result in mistags. Blacklisting would also hide posts that do actually feature the animal along with the furry, making that solution a detriment to searchers that don't mind furries in their searches.

Not having these implications doesn't "mess up tagging", it just means you have to do more work and add gasp one or two extra tags manually. As it turns out, good tagging takes a lot of effort, and we can't just implicate everything just because it would be more convenient.

blindVigil said:

Kemono Friends aren't tagged with the animal they're based on because they would just end up flooding those tags, and they have their own character tags so they're not hard to find in the first place. The issue is with original designs, where the only logical way to tag and search for them is by tagging the species they're based on.

Blacklisting furry doesn't fix the problem because furries appearing in searches isn't the problem. The problem is that these implications will cause posts that don't actually feature birds, dogs, cats, ect. to be tagged with those animals when they aren't present, which is bad tagging. We always try to avoid implications that result in mistags. Blacklisting would also hide posts that do actually feature the animal along with the furry, making that solution a detriment to searchers that don't mind furries in their searches.

Not having these implications doesn't "mess up tagging", it just means you have to do more work and add gasp one or two extra tags manually. As it turns out, good tagging takes a lot of effort, and we can't just implicate everything just because it would be more convenient.

I outlined above that it's a miniscule amount of posts that even overlap and have the issue of the animal not being present (and that's not even counting the amount posts that feature one of those tags alongside the actual animal, like kemonos next to their animals or anthros on beaches with seagulls.)

I meant mess up tagging in that this is changing wildly used tag for what is largely a non issue. The userbase in general seemingly knows not to tag furries and such with the species but is probably used to the bird implications, so remove those and you're just gonna wind up with a bunch of posts missing the bird tag and needing to be fixed later as people gradually realize it's missing all for what is, again, largely a non issue.

I can't remember if you were in chat but the person making that bur even mentioned in the discord that they weren't even pro their own bur and only did so because they thought my original one wouldn't go through and didn't want "Double standards". Which, while well intentioned, I completely disagree with as mine actually had some red names upvoting it before that was posted. So I think "It'll never go through" was a self fulfilling prophecy on that end.

All in all I'm deeply against changing what works ATLEAST (litterally) 97.6% of the time.

People should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
Posts should not be given a tag until proven taggable.
If there's a single valid exception where a post ought to have tag 1 but not tag 2, there should be no implication.

As an analogy, shiba inu could imply dog, but if it did someone looking for posts with dogs in them would have post #4531024, post #5399109 and post #6163870 in their search results. (post #4701331 and post #4731479 would also be there, but arguably the Kemono Friends exception should apply to Arknights and Strike Witches as well. I'm not sure about Donbrothers given it has under 100 posts.)

If they exclude dog girl, they only filter out one of those posts, and won't see other posts that contain both a dog and a dog girl like post #3766236.

War6t2 said:

All in all I'm deeply against changing what works ATLEAST (litterally) 97.6% of the time.

The fact it doesn't work 100% of the time is exactly why we shouldn't do it. That is how implications work, that's how they have always worked. If there's even one post that wouldn't be tagged correctly, then the implication cannot be done.

While I agree more with KagayakuShiningGate's BUR, I am wondering about some of the possible consequences.

One way we could view the animal and species tags is as nouns and adjectives. The general types such as birds are nouns; the tag is used when there are specific instances of that animal in the post. The specific species seem to usually be treated like adjectives; anomalocaris is used for animals, but also for humanoid characters with those traits. In practice, it could be considered to be a tag for things with the traits of an anomalocaris including but not limited to the animal itself.

Also, because birds are nouns, the tag cannot be used as adjectives for girls with bird-like traits, so we need a separate noun, bird girl, instead.

If we decided to treat all of the adjective tags as nouns, or, in other words, use them exclusively for instances of the animal, then War6t2's BUR would be the correct option. However, we would then need specific tags for the kemonomimi/furry characters that can no longer be described with the old tags, which is not a viable option as nonamethanks stated before. Conversely, KagayakuShiningGate's BUR would turn all subcategories of birds into adjectives, freeing them to be used to describe the kemonomimi/furry characters.

I believe that we should definitely remove the bird implication from species-specific tags for the reasons above, but some of the broader subtags may need more consideration before the BUR is passed. For example, do we want to let owl refer to owl-like traits instead of only the species? We currently have an owl girl tag with 526 posts. If owl can be used for the traits, then do we need an owl girl tag? Should we mass update them to owl + bird girl after removing the bird implication? On the other hand, if we want to keep the owl girl tag and use owl exclusively for the animal, then it would make sense to keep the bird implication. The reason I see this working for owl instead of anomalocaris is because owl covers a much broader range of species and there may be a significant demand for users looking specifically for owl girls.

Blank_User said:

While I agree more with KagayakuShiningGate's BUR, I am wondering about some of the possible consequences.

One way we could view the animal and species tags is as nouns and adjectives. The general types such as birds are nouns; the tag is used when there are specific instances of that animal in the post. The specific species seem to usually be treated like adjectives; anomalocaris is used for animals, but also for humanoid characters with those traits. In practice, it could be considered to be a tag for things with the traits of an anomalocaris including but not limited to the animal itself.

Also, because birds are nouns, the tag cannot be used as adjectives for girls with bird-like traits, so we need a separate noun, bird girl, instead.

If we decided to treat all of the adjective tags as nouns, or, in other words, use them exclusively for instances of the animal, then War6t2's BUR would be the correct option. However, we would then need specific tags for the kemonomimi/furry characters that can no longer be described with the old tags, which is not a viable option as nonamethanks stated before. Conversely, KagayakuShiningGate's BUR would turn all subcategories of birds into adjectives, freeing them to be used to describe the kemonomimi/furry characters.

I believe that we should definitely remove the bird implication from species-specific tags for the reasons above, but some of the broader subtags may need more consideration before the BUR is passed. For example, do we want to let owl refer to owl-like traits instead of only the species? We currently have an owl girl tag with 526 posts. If owl can be used for the traits, then do we need an owl girl tag? Should we mass update them to owl + bird girl after removing the bird implication? On the other hand, if we want to keep the owl girl tag and use owl exclusively for the animal, then it would make sense to keep the bird implication. The reason I see this working for owl instead of anomalocaris is because owl covers a much broader range of species and there may be a significant demand for users looking specifically for owl girls.

EXACTLY, keep bird girl, dog girl, etc. People generally know NOT to tag furries with the species.

blindVigil said:

The fact it doesn't work 100% of the time is exactly why we shouldn't do it. That is how implications work, that's how they have always worked. If there's even one post that wouldn't be tagged correctly, then the implication cannot be done.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying and that is also slightly extreme. That small percentage isn't anthros that "qualify" for the tag on their own, it's either pictures of furries/personifications/whatever alongside actual animals like post #3004718 (in which case the animal is correctly tagged) or a tagging mistake by a user tagging a furry/personification/whatever with the bird species which is rare as users know not to do that. The system already works.

Keep the implication and avoid tagging furries/personifications/whatever with the type of animal unless said animal is present too.

I think another aspect that, in a way, bird is closer to a species tag like dog or tiger despite technically being taxonomically more broad. Actual bird species tags like cockatiel are in a way closer, in my opinion at least, to subtype (breed) tags like shiba inu or white tiger.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

I think another aspect that, in a way, bird is closer to a species tag like dog or tiger despite technically being taxonomically more broad. Actual bird species tags like cockatiel are in a way closer, in my opinion at least, to subtype (breed) tags like shiba inu or white tiger.

Hard disagree.

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