Posted under General
... I did noticed something in the Cookie_(touhou) wiki, and that is the videos... while there's some videos that are quite well informed, i did found some others that could kinda fit there too: doki doki, thanksgiving, bullet drive (those two being maded by majormilk, the one who creater the easter special), and revolutionary birthday (maded by shiriri).
Should we made them aslo be a category for the videos in Cookie? or does some more investigating should be made before posting them?
thelieutenant said:
thanksgiving is probably worth adding because it has a few characters that got art, but i dont think the rest of them have any good art
theres dozens of voice dramas, so i only add the ones that get decent art
Oh, ok. Still… there’s something that’s kinda bothering me about the whole “cookie☆” thing, and that is… Do they count as “famine”? Since, as you tell, there’s dozen of voice dramas, and some more may probably be keep doing while we speak (or spoke). But… for me the question about it being a famine is quite… interesting, since, while it may not be “famine-fanime” (think memories of phantasm), it does has quite a story, albeit neither episodic, or nonsencial. But… their quality is what I’m worried about. As an example, the first ever cookie video (Cookie kiss) it said that it took 20 diferent artists to do the whole thing (from the backgrounds, to the characters) and 8 characters to do the voice acting. And then afterwards, more videos came ever since the Lewd Dream “collaborated” with it in order to turn it into a separate entity of touhou; and so more and more artists came and decided to do their own “voicedramas”. And, since some may have a lot of different scenes changes thanks to the many artists that “collaborate” with them (except Self-Contradiction, which is much more famine-esque), it’s kinda gets me into thinking if it is could be considered as a famine all together? (even if it’s quality it may just be the same as neither Youreimu or koishi komeiji’s heart-throbbing adeventure: just still images with some dialogue.)
Specially since, by looking at the updated wiki page, I noticed that “Monorail☆” is considered as a cookie, even though it’s only like 2 minutes of runtime, while other cookies run from 20 minutes to 40-50 minutes long, almost as half of a movie.. and this makes me kinda worried to see if other videos such as Patchouli’s going to explode or Flandre’s moe strategy counts as well a “cookie”-based videos or not? I’m kinda asking that because by reading a post on twitter that said that cookie was also born from touhou’s fans, trying to do a tribute, and all of those videos, mads, and stuff are kinda to honor said franchise… even if their quality can vary between author too.. but then, while reading about the “shaming the mob” troupe in tvtroupes, it said that the main character from self contradiction said a lot of “negative” things about the fandom of cookie, such as the people who just do the voice-dramas to gather money and fame, the fundamentalist who just won’t let any new blood into the community, and the fans who just wants more and more of the voice-dramas without caring about the quality of said videos. It’s kinda gets me a bit worried if this also counts for the other fanimes too (if they also want money or fame, or if they can be misleading too…) Actually, I did found out a “flash” animation of touhou based on the very first game (highly responsible to prayers) and it’s makes me wonder if it’s kinda falls or not in the cookie category… actually, I also while “google translating” some titles of videos in a youtube channel that has various videos (most of them being voice dramas) I found that some are divided in voiced dramas/videos and handwritten voice dramas. Are these titles the same, or are they different things though? Oh, and another thing, I also through the hand drawn it also appear the theism video that Ouka music has done too… which kinda makes me have the question: are all touhou hand-drawn videos cookie videos or voice dramas? Or are they not and are all different?... this is kinda getting me a lot of anxiety to think about to be honest…
Here's the link to the channel to see what am I talking about: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvvCeRuboSySbMKA6JJLi6w/videos
LALA867 said:
Oh, ok. Still… there’s something that’s kinda bothering me about this whole “Cookie☆” thing, and that is… do they count as “fanime”? Since, as you say, there’s dozens of voice dramas, and some more may probably still be making them as we speak (or spoke). But… for me, the question about whether it is a fanime is quite… interesting, since, while it may not be “fanime-fanime” (think Memories of Phantasm), some do have quite a story, albeit neither episodic, or nonsensical. But… their quality is what I’m worried about.
As an example, the first ever Cookie☆ video (Cookie Kiss), it is said that 20 different artists were involved (from the backgrounds, to the characters) and 8 voice actresses to act out the characters. And then afterwards, more videos came ever since the Inmu community “collaborated” with it in order to turn it into a separate entity from Touhou; and so more and more artists came and decided to do their own “voice-dramas”. And, since some may have frequent scene changes thanks to the many artists that “collaborate” with them (except Self-Contradiction, which is much more fanime-esque), it has kinda gotten me to wonder whether it could be considered as famine altogether (even with quality in mind, it may just be the same as neither Reireimu or Koishi Komeiji’s Heart-Throbbing Adventure: just still images with some dialogue)?
Specially, since by looking at the updated wiki page, I noticed that “Monorail☆” is considered as a Cookie☆ video, even though it’s only like 2 minutes of runtime, while other Cookie☆ videos run from 20 minutes to 40-50 minutes long, almost the length of half a movie... and this makes me kinda worried to check if other videos (such as Patchouli’s Going to Explode or Flandre’s Moe Strategy) count as well as “Cookie☆”-based videos or not. I’m kinda asking that because, by reading a post on Twitter that said that Cookie☆ was also born from Touhou’s fans, trying to do a tribute, and all of those videos, otoMADs, and stuff are kinda to honor said franchise… even if their quality can vary from author to author too... but then, while reading about the “Shaming the Mob” trope on TVTropes, it said that the main character from Self-Contradiction said a lot of “negative” things about the fandom of Cookie☆, such as the people who just do the voice-dramas to gather money and fame, the fundamentalist who just wasn't letting in new blood into the community, and the fans who just wants more and more of the voice-dramas without caring about the quality of said videos. It had kinda gotten me a bit worried if this applies for the other fanimes too (if they also want money or fame, or if they can be misleading too…) Actually, I did find a Flash animation based on the very first Touhou game (Highly Responsible to Prayers) and it made me wonder if it kinda falls in the Cookie☆ category or not…
Actually, while “Google Translating” some video titles from a YouTube channel that has variety of them (most being voice dramas), I found that some are divided in voiced dramas/videos and hand-drawn voice dramas. Are these titles the same, or are they different things? Oh, and another thing, going through the hand-drawn ones the theism video that Ouka Music has done appears under that label too… which kinda made me ask: are all hand-drawn Touhou videos Cookie☆ videos or voice dramas? Or are they not and are all different?... this is kinda giving me a lot of anxiety thinking about it, to be honest…
Here's the link to the channel to see what am I talking about: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvvCeRuboSySbMKA6JJLi6w/videos
If I may chime in, I feel like a few 'Cookie☆' videos could potentially qualify for fanime, even if they aren't in the same scale as something like Self-Contradiction☆. Gorgonzola☆ has big 'shitpost fanime' energy, and has decent enough editing to go with that. Though I ultimately don't know why this fanime discussion is even being had, given that the wiki is organized as such to make it easy to tag the stuff we already have on site, or may likely get on site; and as a result, it only really features the most videos that have or are likely to get art in the first place (whether due to popularity, etc). However, just because some videos could be considered fanime doesn't mean all of them do. Cookie Kiss☆, ultimately, has motion comparable to a visual novel from 12 years ago, and it isn't the only one in that regard. So whether overall Cookie☆ could be considered fanime, I'd say no, but it is (for the most part) collaborative.
I wouldn't worry about what counts as Cookie☆ and what doesn't, honestly. Even stuff that is made for the Cookie☆ community ultimately doesn't get picked up by the community for one reason or another (as an example, MajorMilk, who you mention in the OP, has done several voice dramas, but only really Easter☆ has maintained community attention over time; Turkey☆ has had some attention, while Half-Life☆ is basically the ugly step-child that no one really talks about in JP spaces, from what I understand, due to what it is referencing). What really makes a Cookie☆ video a Cookie☆ video is whether or not it is picked up by the community and then meme'd to oblivion (hence why in Self-Contradiction☆ the fundamentalists were opposed to Cookie☆ content creators making their own 'voice dramas' which can then be used as source material - it's not taken from the 'outside' and turned inside out, it's being made from 'within' and is thus potentially tainted by 'self-awareness' and measures taken to protect the folks behind the video, beyond the other reasons; so it is already picked up by the community by default). And, to my understanding, factors that play a role in getting picked up include having a certain 'shitty' energy (including the voice acting), potential yuri undertones, potentially cheesy plotlines, not having elements that require implicit Touhou knowledge (official or fandom), etc. - so something like Patchouli’s Going to Explode, Flandre’s Moe Strategy, Usatei, Reireimu, Koishi Komeiji’s Heart-Throbbing Adventure, etc. wouldn't exactly fit the bill for this community. It's very much a 'tertiary' base.
Of course, as you note, there is however still overlap between the Cookie☆ community and the Touhou community despite the functional distance between each, but just because there is overlap doesn't mean that suddenly all hand-drawn Touhou videos are now Cookie☆ videos or voice dramas (so Ouka's Theism isn't suddenly a Cookie☆ video, even if it is reuploaded onto a channel that has Cookie☆-related content on it; could just mean the channel in general likes that kind of Touhou content, regardless if it is Cookie☆ or not). Intent is important behind these videos, so, for instance, I imagine the guy who made that HRtP flash had never even heard of Cookie☆ (though if the video has a ☆ in the title, one could make a decent enough guess). Additionally, even in a community as odd as Cookie☆, it is layered and diverse, so what intent a video may have can even depend on the creator in that space (whether it is honoring Touhou, or just because they think a VA voiced some lines funny and wanna shitpost with that).
