CormacM said:
-snip-
Yeah this is pretty much where I stand as well.
Posted under General
Rewording the upload rules page would probably help.
Getting rid of "western" and maybe mentioning it should be held to a higher standard.
Like these post #4645009 . Pretty rough stuff.
Policy wise, there is not much to be done with furry. It should just be left to a case by case basis. So flag more.
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Guaro said:
I complained about the reason "western furry" being a poor flagging reason, when images that are clearly not western furry, are getting flagged as such. It's like flagging a perfectly anatomical correct image as "bad anatomy" and then shaming any approver for disagreeing on this.
Also, it's wrong to say that every approver approves such stuff out of spite. It's a typical argument made by people who don't get it their way. Not all furries got approved again, only those where approvers said they think it's good enough. Can't talk for everyone, but I know that NNT doesn't approve stuff he think is bad, even if the flagging reason is wrong. So the best thing to do is, not to claim that approvers either have shit taste or are approving out of spite, because right now there were more flaggers being mad about their flags not going through than approvers approving anything out of spite.
I am absolutely not saying that approvers have shit taste or are approving out of spite. "Western furry" is an invalid flag reason on posts that are not western furry, so approvers are quite right to re-approve these flags.
The problem is that what counts as western furry is subjective and people disagree very strongly about what is or isn't western furry. People feel like these posts shouldn't be on Danbooru, so they check the upload rules, see "western furry", and think "yeah that's pretty much what I don't like about this post" and use it as a flag. And then their flag is rejected. If are more approvers who genuinely like the post than flaggers who think it should be deleted, then it can stay, no complaints from me. But whether or not the post is "western furry" isn't a particularly helpful criterion on whether it should stay on Danbooru, and it's causing legitimate complaints to get rejected.
.Dank said:
+1
The stuff that should get flagged and deleted are those that are poorly drawn, have garbage proportions, or fail the Western artist, Western copyright, Western style test. Renamon is from a eastern copyright, so it should be fine. But stuff like the Zootopia porn drawn by a western artist without any clear anime styling should not be allowed. I've uploaded some furry stuff to e6 that I know is not up to danbooru standards. That always remains an option for that kind of content.
thelieutenant said:
The stuff that should get flagged and deleted are those that are poorly drawn, have garbage proportions, or fail the Western artist, Western copyright, Western style test. Renamon is from a eastern copyright, so it should be fine. But stuff like the Zootopia porn drawn by a western artist without any clear anime styling should not be allowed. I've uploaded some furry stuff to e6 that I know is not up to danbooru standards. That always remains an option for that kind of content.
I've seen the western style/artist/copyright "rule" brought up a lot over the years, but it was never a real thing. Nobody has ever cared about it save to bring it up whenever these arguments about taste show up. Otherwise we wouldn't have 12k posts under overwatch, and the consistently highest rated content on this site wouldn't be 3d porn.
For as long as I've been an approver (admittedly not that long compared to other users) the rule has always been "if it looks good to you approve/upload it". It's absurd to try and enforce any other rule from the perspective of the mod queue.
It also leads to stupid conclusions. Take renamon and give it a different name and the original tag. Why is the exact same picture now off-topic when it was on topic before?
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Lobuttomize said:
It's time we ban all non-touhou content
Finally, someone starts speaking some sense!
thelieutenant said:
Western artist, Western copyright, Western style test.
The only time I've ever seen this "policy" come up is when people try to argue that western artists shouldn't be allowed and in explanations specifically for why we don't do that. It's not feasible to filter artists by nationality, it's too easy to screw up. I think something about it was mentioned in howto:upload at one point, but like NNT said, no one ever actually followed it, except when they wanted to flag art they didn't like. That's all it ever amounted to, an excuse for people to argue over excluding artists over nationality, as if that has any bearing on a post's artistic merit.
This whole "I don't like western art" stance is and always has been xenophobic to me.
Noone, especially non-artists of Danbooru, should get to decide what is a "pure Japanese" style, especially since it's an oxymoron - great artists steal ideas from cool shit they see all the time, doesn't matter where.
And as for this "wave of furry":
Furry is approx. 0.89% of content uploaded in the past year (non-safe furry is 0.25% of total)
If you're "seeing" too many posts, you must be specifically searching for it.
I've never really agreed with the whole "western WWW" thing. As time goes on, the overlap between western- and anime-style has all but become a single overlap. Basically the only things excluded nowadays are outright cartoons direct from Nickelodeon.
...even then, post #2877817 fails that WWW test (though I'm certain someone is going to come in and say it's not western-styled). post #2895596 also fails the WWW test. Images should be judged on their own merit. I want to flag the second image, but I'm favoriting the first.
What counts as western and what doesn't is as subjective as the quality of the image itself. I think there are a handful of Renamon posts that are very much western that I will be told are "classic Japanese kemono". I think posts like post #4554312 and post #4313724 belong on e621 and furaffinity, not Danbooru. The second one barely even looks like Renamon anymore. Furry exists in that grey area of what people believe to be acceptable even more so than any DOOM pic with a mod action list a mile long.
Ultimately, I agree completely with .Dank.
kia'ra said:
This whole "I don't like western art" stance is and always has been xenophobic to me.
Noone, especially non-artists of Danbooru, should get to decide what is a "pure Japanese" style, especially since it's an oxymoron - great artists steal ideas from cool shit they see all the time, doesn't matter where.And as for this "wave of furry":
Furry is approx. 0.89% of content uploaded in the past year (non-safe furry is 0.25% of total)
If you're "seeing" too many posts, you must be specifically searching for it.
Wouldn't it be the opposite of xenophobic assuming they're a westerner and dislike western art? Traitorous is the closest word I can find
Veradux said:
What counts as western and what doesn't is as subjective as the quality of the image itself. I think there are a handful of Renamon posts that are very much western that I will be told are "classic Japanese kemono". I think posts like post #4554312 and post #4313724 belong on e621 and furaffinity, not Danbooru.
https://files.catbox.moe/vj79zv.jpg
I don't know how you can claim that's not anime style. It looks like a million other random cat girls if you hide the snout and only that.
This looks more and more like an argument for banning what you personally don't like rather than what is objectively low quality.
If these posts truly were terrible then they'd have been flagged four or five times, not once and immediately reapproved.
There are far more potential flaggers than approvers, and the system already greatly favors deletion when a post is contested. If the posts are really terrible it won't be long before they're gone for good.
I don't see the point in trying to advocate for the complete removal of a category when it's clearly never going to happen. It's absurd that we even have to explain this.
Even regulation of specific content more than another is absurd because how do you enforce that? Do you create a task force of users dedicated to policing that content? How would that even be different from normal flagging? And why should it be handled differently from the rest of the site? No, "I don't like it" or "I don't feel it belongs here" is not a valid argument, when it's been present on site for years and it gets as many searches as furry does (some 30k in the last week not counting bots).
I know I'm sounding like a furry here but this is a really bad slippery slope. Now it's furry, then it'll be bestiality, then it's rape or shota/loli or any other content that people don't like. We are seeing the same exact thing with paid rewards, where now we have people routinely asking about or even advocating for the banning of repost watermarks and doujinshi/artbooks.
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I think that a complete ban is unnecessary. There are quality works, source the origin of the style.
I would suggest:
Add western furry wiki, link to main wiki, put in Borderline content;Add "rating e" for western furry to the default blacklist.
This will allow:
Indicate examples of oriental furry by title (anime, movies, etc.);
Reduce the amount of visible content that may be unpleasant for fans of "Japanese style";
Will remove the contradiction in the border status of different types of furry and the presence of the same furry is prohibited.
P.S. Even with the related item "Western cartoon porn or rule 34 porn", I would ask you to check if the rule is being followed:
western rating:e This is only with this tag, and most likely there are unlabeled images.
Updated
furry -rating:s is already in the default blacklist.
nonamethanks said:
furry -rating:s is already in the default blacklist.
Thank you. I forget that my blacklist is different (yaoi futanari guro scat).
First off, the western tag is for the wild west, not for western art styles. I'm going to assume this was an error, unless you have a strong objection to cowboys on the site. If so, I'd be interested to hear it.
As for the flagging side of things mentioned by CormacM, wouldn't a lot of the issue be resolved if people used detailed rejection more? I'm not going to say whether western furry should be allowed on the site—it's not my place and I don't actually care that much. But if an otherwise poor quality post is flagged for an invalid reason, I don't necessarily think it should always end in reapproval. A quick comment of "This shouldn't have been flagged for (x), but it's not reapproved because (y)" should help avoid giving uploaders a false idea of what is and isn't allowed on the site, while at the same time allowing posts to be judged by their merit like everything else in the queue. Ideally we'll need to do this less as we start to form a general agreement of what should be allowed going forward, but it could be a stopgap while we iron out future policy.
Cattywampus said:
First off, the western tag is for the wild west, not for western art styles. I'm going to assume this was an error, unless you have a strong objection to cowboys on the site. If so, I'd be interested to hear it.
I say about: post #4623573 post #3985505 post #3979916 post #4188008
Even if the tag matches the description, is the ban condition met? If you look at the upload dates, you will notice that the tag has not been used in an erotic context for a long time. Only the several posts are out of this chronology.
It turns out that downloads from "@Kikimaru" are very doubtful.
Dolmatov said:
I say about: post #4623573 post #3985505 post #3979916 post #4188008
Even if the tag matches the description, is the ban condition met? If you look at the upload dates, you will notice that the tag has not been used in an erotic context for a long time. Only the several posts are out of this chronology.
It turns out that downloads from "@Kikimaru" are very doubtful.
What "ban condition?" Are you suggesting cowboys can't be lewd? Western doesn't have any sort of implicit "safe" context, there's nothing wrong with those posts.
As an aside, is western perhaps a tad ambiguous? I'm wondering if there might be a benefit in renaming it to cowboy western.
I don't know about you guys. But if you check my favorites tagged with furry (here); I like cute furries like those from Solatorobo (post #3937675), Sonic franchise (post #3996324), and Mia from World Flipper for example (post #4583652). And I would probably approve them if it is something like those I mentioned.
Considering a lot of these flags are for furry arts I personally don't like (too explicit for one example), I just skipped them all.
This is just my opinion of this topic though.
kia'ra said:
Do you not understand what cowboys are?
Not in this case. I asked you to check the observance of the certain rule, because noticed an increase in activity using the tag. If everything is in order, then it is not worth discussing.
P.S. It's offtop for Furry discussion, because don't reply without a clear need.
