(Arknights) Robin and "Gloves"

NNescio said:

I agree that Robin's ones are actually her hands.

Though it is definitely going to be a source of mistags (because they tend to look like gloves at first glance) and have to be gardened from time to time. Nothing much we can do about it, though having a separate animal_hands tag might help in hinting to people not to put the gloves tag back on after they are removed.

I'd say if one isn't sure, then the "hands" should be tagged with neither. And examples that are depicted as clearly gloves should be tagged gloves, never mind the actual canonicity.

I'll try to keep an eye on Robin's newly added art. Also for Diona I tagged post #4597794 with animal hands, since it looks like the cat hands she has in her official art. Hopefully that's fine, otherwise I apologize. I might have jumped the gun there, I did it before it was brought into discussion.

I added "animal hands" to all relevant Robin posts, and removed the gloves tags as needed. There was only post #4262950 that looks like the artist drew her with gloves specifically, and well the only other glove post with her involves the Doctor's gloved hands. A couple art works where she has human hands, I left those of course. So that should be all with Robin for right now.

Personally I need to get some other stuff done and then sleep, but I guess there's some characters in the future to go over? Like Felecia from Vampire. If people want to add the "animal hands" tag to her.

MisterJuice said:

Personally I need to get some other stuff done and then sleep, but I guess there's some characters in the future to go over? Like Felecia from Vampire. If people want to add the "animal hands" tag to her.

I went through Felicia and added 1167 posts, then list_of_monster_girl_encyclopedia_monster_girls and added 1186 more.

I'm now sick of this tag, but it would be worth checking out some searches like claws -furry -pokemon -monster_girl_encyclopedia etc. because there's definitely plenty of original examples and stuff from copyrights I haven't checked.

CormacM said:

I went through Felicia and added 1167 posts, then list_of_monster_girl_encyclopedia_monster_girls and added 1186 more.

I'm now sick of this tag, but it would be worth checking out some searches like claws -furry -pokemon -monster_girl_encyclopedia etc. because there's definitely plenty of original examples and stuff from copyrights I haven't checked.

Riza Wildman comes to mind... though now I noticed they are tagged paws... which now seems to be problematic because it makes animal_hands somewhat superfluous. The paws wiki also mentions Felicia (vampire) as an example, and is a long-established tag with multiple implications leading to it (from "paws" of specific animals). It's effectively the "limbs" analog of the animal ears tag.

It now might make better sense to alias animal_hands to paws, and then rely on excluding gloves to find real animal paws. This makes tagging more intuitive as it is easier to just tag paws instead of trying to suss out whether a character has actual paws as part of their anatomy or if it's just a covering. Gloves would then only be tagged for cases where they appear overtly as, well, gloves. This also works out analogously to how animal ears and fake animal ears are used (again, because it can be often hard to tell the difference between real and fake animal ears).

Though this approach does also roll in hind appendages (i.e. animal "feet") together with paws. Which can be trickier to exclude.

And speaking of... there's also the animal_feet tag.

NNescio said:

It now might make better sense to alias animal_hands to paws, and then rely on excluding gloves to find real animal paws. This makes tagging more intuitive as it is easier to just tag paws instead of trying to suss out whether a character has actual paws as part of their anatomy or if it's just a covering. Gloves would then only be tagged for cases where they appear overtly as, well, gloves. This also works out analogously to how animal ears and fake animal ears are used (again, because it can be often hard to tell the difference between real and fake animal ears).

The paws tag name seems to me to suggest hands modeled after dog or cat paws, not scaly claw type or feathery hands, which I included in my animal_hands tagging. Also, I feel like animal_hands as its described in my wiki and how I've been tagging it is a distinct enough concept to merit separating out from the big mess of different stuff that is currently all under paws: pokemon, furries, paw gloves, actual cats/dogs, etc. I don't really care too much either way though, it might not be worth the work.

And speaking of... there's also the animal_feet tag.

Tons of untagged animal_feet under monster_girl_encyclopedia

I agree with Cormac, paws makes me think of actual animal paws. I wouldn't describe something like post #4205825 as "paws," those are totally just hands with fur and claws.

I use bird legs quite a bit, you can probably find a lot of animal feet there. Likely more under things like hooves and digitigrade.

CormacM said:

The paws tag name seems to me to suggest hands modeled after dog or cat paws, not scaly claw type or feathery hands, which I included in my animal_hands tagging. Also, I feel like animal_hands as its described in my wiki and how I've been tagging it is a distinct enough concept to merit separating out from the big mess of different stuff that is currently all under paws: pokemon, furries, paw gloves, actual cats/dogs, etc. I don't really care too much either way though, it might not be worth the work.

If we don't tag things like cat ears on actual cats, we probably shouldn't tag paws and the like on actual animals. The wiki should be edited to include that. Right now, it appears to cover both paw gloves and "real" paws. Paw gloves is implicated to it.

If we're tagging things like post #2977706 and post #2919929 as animal_hands then I don't see the point in keeping paws and animal hands separate. Might as well alias paws to animal_hands if the issue is with the name.

The paws wiki can be safely disregarded anyway, we already have paw gloves for fake ones.

I also want to point out that there's 6.4k posts under paws -gloves -no_humans. At a glance an absolute shitload of those seem to fit the definition of animal_hands too.

nonamethanks said:

If we're tagging things like post #2977706 and post #2919929 as animal_hands then I don't see the point in keeping paws and animal hands separate. Might as well alias paws to animal_hands if the issue is with the name.

The paws wiki can be safely disregarded anyway, we already have paw gloves for fake ones.

I also want to point out that there's 6.4k posts under paws -gloves -no_humans. At a glance an absolute shitload of those seem to fit the definition of animal_hands too.

I'd agree in principle but this will require going through and redefining (and splitting/renaming) all the *ANIMAL*_paws tags, which all seem to inherit the same definition (implied or otherwise) from paws. That is, "mammalian non-human 'hands' and 'feet', either worn fake ones or real as part of actual anatomy". Cat paws is particularly problematic as it is highly populated and used almost similar to cat ears (i.e. both real and fake examples and all the ambiguous in-betweens that can't really be distinguished for one or the other). So trying to split cat_paws would require someone to sift through all the examples and try to figure out whether the paws are real or not, which can be difficult without relying on meta knowledge. Though... I suppose we could go with a policy of "assume they are real unless they are obviously gloves", if we want to go that route.

Though maybe some of the less populated ones can be nuked? Like what is currently being considered for some of the *ANIMAL*_ears tags.

NNescio said:

I'd agree in principle but this will require going through and redefining (and splitting/renaming) all the *ANIMAL*_paws tags, which all seem to inherit the same definition (implied or otherwise) from paws. That is, "mammalian non-human 'hands' and 'feet', either worn fake ones or real as part of actual anatomy". Cat paws is particularly problematic as it is highly populated and used almost similar to cat ears (i.e. both real and fake examples and all the ambiguous in-betweens that can't really be distinguished for one or the other). So trying to split cat_paws would require someone to sift through all the examples and try to figure out whether the paws are real or not, which can be difficult without relying on meta knowledge. Though... I suppose we could go with a policy of "assume they are real unless they are obviously gloves", if we want to go that route.

Though maybe some of the less populated ones can be nuked? Like what is currently being considered for some of the *ANIMAL*_ears tags.

There's only 6 paws tags. We can easily use cat paws and similar as a modifier.

In any case I predict people will just use animal hands vs paws according to personal preferences, because there's no true distinction between them that we can make or enforce. See paws dragon_girl.

This seems like the kind of mess that we'll have to fix in two years after it has become a jangled mess nobody wants to touch.

nonamethanks said:

There's only 6 paws tags. We can easily use cat paws and similar as a modifier.

In any case I predict people will just use animal hands vs paws according to personal preferences, because there's no true distinction between them that we can make or enforce. See paws dragon_girl.

This seems like the kind of mess that we'll have to fix in two years after it has become a jangled mess nobody wants to touch.

True. Would likely work better that way, using the relevant *ANIMAL*_paws tags as an additional modifier tag (for gloves, boots, animal_hands and animal_feet) on examples that actually resemble animal paws instead of being humanlike hands/feet with claws and animal fur markings.

Though, if we're going to alias paws to animal_hands (or leave paws as an ambiguous tag after moving relevant examples into animal_hands), I think we'd need to remove the various *ANIMAL*_paws -> paws implications first, as those will get in the way of gardening.

Having thought about it, I think we should do either animal_hands -> paws or the reverse, so long as we move some of the stuff under paws to other tags. The reason I don't like paws as it is right now is because there's animal_hands, paw_gloves, furry, pokemon and cat/dog posts all together jumbled together under it. The tag has just too many different concepts under it for it to be useful, so at the least I'd like to see the furry/no_humans stuff separated out (going by the current wiki these are really mistags, but there are so many of them that really the wiki is wrong).

For animal_hands vs. paw_gloves, I think it's okay to keep them together as one tag (paws), and add paw_gloves where necessary to mark those that are obviously gloves. As NNT pointed out, most of the time, it's going to be impossible to tell which is which without relying on canon or just personal preference.

For which direction the alias should go in, I'm not sure. animal hands -> paws keeps consistency with the *_paws tags and paw gloves but paws -> animal_hands is less ambiguous and fits better with scaly-hand characters like Jabberwock

I wouldn't want to alias animal hands -> paws, as the very topic of this thread isn't really distinguishable as paws and my example that brought animal hand to light is a bird. Birds do not have paws.
Thus, the reverse would be good.