Donmai

Flash and Ruffle

Posted under General

prints said:

I've been having this same issue for a long time ~.~, I don't check the forums very much or I would have posted this right away
Switching browsers is not an option for me because Pale Moon is the most up-to-modern-standards browser that supports my OS (Windows XP)
I do know about the flash projector too, but that's not really the issue because I can just open the link in a new tab to view the flash.
The issue is that every time I click a flash that's been uploaded, ruffle automatically starts trying to play it and ⑨freezes⑨ my computer for like 30 seconds before the "kill unresponsive process" dialog shows up and I can use my browser again... I'm not aware of any way to block ruffle from loading but it's probably possible.
In any case, it would be really nice if there was an option to disable ruffle in danbooru and load the flash instead. I have been avoiding clicking on flashes for this very reason, which is a shame because I like watching them.

Please move to a modern Linux distro if you're that against getting a Windows OS released in the last 20 years, holy shit.

I promise you they're real good.

thanks for the adblock advice DeusExCalamus and parasol, I will look into that

DeusExCalamus said:

>Still using Windows XP in 2021
Man it's been seven years since it went unsupported, and it's nearly 20 years old outside of that. Let it go.
Switch to Linux or something, people like you are the reason why I have to deal with my mailserver being hammered by bots all the damn time, seriously.

That said, if you use any sort of adblock (ublock origin can almost 100% do this) it should be possible to block the scripts/part of the scripts that try to load the ruffle stuff.

Perriner said:

Please move to a modern Linux distro if you're that against getting a Windows OS released in the last 20 years, holy shit.

I promise you they're real good.

I would never betray XP-tan like that

evazion said:

According to Wikipedia, the last version of Pale Moon that supported XP was version 26.5.0, released in 2016. As far as I can tell, it was based on Firefox 24 from 2013. This is way too old to be worth supporting for me.

the fork I'm using is called MyPal and it's made especially for Windows XP and updated whenever Pale Moon is

SeaMonkey user here (current stable version is 2.53.8.1, I'm now currently testing 2.53.9b1) under Debian 10/11.

Didn't noticed Danbooru now uses Ruffle for Flash until very recently, when one of said posts hung my browser (IIRC I tried post #338024). Thankfully Mozilla-based browsers still keep the unresponsive script warnings, so eventually I was able to break out of the hang.

Before you say "use a more modern browser", it's HARD for browser developers not funded by Google to keep along with Google-sponsored enhancements (even Microsoft gave up and switched to Chrome - MICROSOFT!!!), and I'm not interested into going back to a browser with an unusable UI and a complete disregard to what its users actually need (Firefox). FWIW, it's on both SeaMonkey and Pale Moon agendas to eventually backport the required code to please the ever-moving web standards (particularly the already complex additions to JavaScript, and the behemoth of Google Web Components), but these are projects with little manpower, so the progress is slow.

FWIW, Ruffle's demo page doesn't even work on SeaMonkey / Pale Moon due to the current lack of support for Web Components, although that doesn't seem to explain the hangs on SeaMonkey (I've caught a stack trace after interrupting the script from the developer console: https://pastebin.com/ngiFFz6L )

(Having said that, the Pale Moon guys really really REALLY have a lot of contempt against MyPal and other pointless XP-friendly forks)

Anyway, thanks for resisting the temptation of Google shiny web junk and keeping Danbooru browser-agnostic! - that's worth a lot in the middle of the current web design pandemic, where "Chrome and cellphones first, everything else GTFO".

dilworks said:

Didn't noticed Danbooru now uses Ruffle for Flash until very recently, when one of said posts hung my browser (IIRC I tried post #338024). Thankfully Mozilla-based browsers still keep the unresponsive script warnings, so eventually I was able to break out of the hang.

try doing what parasol said, it really works! I added that URL to uBlock Origin and now Danbooru flashes don't freeze my browser! ^o^

dilworks said:

(Having said that, the Pale Moon guys really really REALLY have a lot of contempt against MyPal and other pointless XP-friendly forks)

They're cleaning up the code for maximum compatibility, what's pointless about that? -.-" It's the developers' choice if they don't want to spend the extra time testing on XP, but contempt for those who do seems irrational to me. With the amount of support that the MyPal and New Moon projects receive, it's clear that many people appreciate their efforts. Why do you call it pointless?

prints said:

It's the developers' choice if they don't want to spend the extra time testing on XP, but contempt for those who do seems irrational to me. […] Why do you call it pointless?

This isn’t about not wanting to test on XP. XP is a liability that needs to be condemned.

Off-topic elaboration:[expand]
I can totally understand you, though. I kept using XP for way longer than I should’ve been, too.

You need to understand that you can’t keep it around forever and since it’s abysmal outdatedness and insecurity are already causing trouble now, you need to let it go sooner rather than later. I’d be surprised if you don’t have at least some malware on your PC. As a sysadmin, I’m at the receiving end of that.

Also, I’m sure that various incompatibilities, such as Ruffle not working, are already annoying you time and time again. Let it go, if not for the safety of the Internet then for your own mental health. Trust me. I’m speaking from experience.

Personally, I moved to Linux (Debian) with a somewhat Windows-like window manager (Mate) because newer versions of Windows as well as MacOS were annoying me too much. Linux has its drawbacks too, but I can easily tolerate those. I made the move six years ago and never looked back.

In the end, it doesn’t matter what modern OS you move to. What matters is that you ditch XP.
</PSA>[/expand]

kittey said:

This isn’t about not wanting to test on XP. XP is a liability that needs to be condemned.

Off-topic elaboration:[expand]
I can totally understand you, though. I kept using XP for way longer than I should’ve been, too.

You need to understand that you can’t keep it around forever and since it’s abysmal outdatedness and insecurity are already causing trouble now, you need to let it go sooner rather than later. I’d be surprised if you don’t have at least some malware on your PC. As a sysadmin, I’m at the receiving end of that.

Also, I’m sure that various incompatibilities, such as Ruffle not working, are already annoying you time and time again. Let it go, if not for the safety of the Internet then for your own mental health. Trust me. I’m speaking from experience.

Personally, I moved to Linux (Debian) with a somewhat Windows-like window manager (Mate) because newer versions of Windows as well as MacOS were annoying me too much. Linux has its drawbacks too, but I can easily tolerate those. I made the move six years ago and never looked back.

In the end, it doesn’t matter what modern OS you move to. What matters is that you ditch XP.
</PSA>[/expand]

very off topic:[expand]
I'm aware of the insecurities, and I can assure you there is no malware running on my computer, I use a hardware-level firewall, a regularly updated hosts file, and I scan any software I download before running it, and sometimes open it in a VM first even if it says it's safe, just to be sure. Of course, Windows 10 isn't all that secure either, and it's a much bigger target for malware these days too because of it's popularity. In my opinion, most of the fear around Windows XP's security is just a result of Microsoft and other software companies' campaigning to get people using their latest products.

In terms of compatibility, it's not as bad as you would think. As an example, the only compatibility issues I have had with my browser are with Ruffle, which I have just fixed, and YouTube, which I can just access through an Invidious instance such as https://youtube.076.ne.jp instead. For software that doesn't run on Windows XP, I have my Windows 7 VM for that, and I honestly don't even find myself needing to open it very often.

As far as my mental health is concerned, I imagine I wouldn't be doing it any favors if I were to switch to another OS, as I would be spending hours and hours trying to get it to look and behave exactly like Windows XP and never being fully satisfied with it. There are some annoyances with trying to make modern software work the way I want it to on Windows XP, but it's almost always fixable and I enjoy the challenge. In the end, I love Windows XP too much to ever stop using it; it is truly the pinnacle of modern computing. Anything else is but a mere imitation.
[/expand]

Possible fix for those of us not running Chrome/latest Firefox: add the relevant polyfills for Web Components:
https://www.npmjs.com/package/@webcomponents/webcomponentsjs
(this has to be done server-side, or someone might need to come up with an browser addon which injects the polyfills on demand - we already have to use one for GitHub!)

Got it working on a hackyhackyhacky local file (I hate hate HATE NPM, but fortunately they still let you download tarballs of the libs you need) - interactivity was broken, but I'm sure I'm missing something. It STILL doesn't explain the hangs (but after some talk with a couple SeaMonkey devs, Ruffle may be doing something odd with the customElements detection), and since Danbooru now has updated its Ruffle dependency, i guess we should wait to see if the hangs are still reproducible there.

If you need a SeaMonkey tester, count with me.

UPDATE: Apparently Ruffle doesn't play nice with the polyfills:
Test case: https://jsfiddle.net/rjmhcpkq/
Screenshots (comparison between SM2.53.9b1 and FF78ESR): https://imgur.com/a/utn5sCv
It PLAYS movies, but then without interactivity it's kinda useless. Oh, and it refuses to stay inside its container <DIV> for whatever reason. Might escalate this to the Ruffle team, as I suspect their debugging is "sorry, we only test on Chrome and latest Firefox", and they have never tested using the official Web Components team polyfills.

UPDATE 2: After more testing, I've filled a bug with the Ruffle project, as the polyfill support is basically unusable as-is, but I feel that there is room for a workaround: https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle/issues/5118 - if your SWF has no interactivity whatsoever and it's old enough to not use AS3 features, it should play right away, even with the polyfills, but having in mind the obvious rendering issues present on such a "non-standard" scenario.

Updated

I agree new flash uploads should be allowed.
Since it is a dead format there's not going to be too much new content, but there are some artists who continue using it as it is what they learned and are good with. Of course there are also many existing on-topic flash files that aren't yet on Danbooru. Sure there are dedicated SWF archiving sites but they are not Danbooru and lack our thorough tagging. Also I don't like the idea of converting files to a format of a different type before uploading, as it significantly alters the content (unlike say a BMP to PNG conversion). For example all the easter eggs in post #137679 would be lost in a video.
At least files that are ruffle compatible at the time of upload should be allowed.

Aqros161 said:

i haven't forgotten. please we need flashes

It's time to let it go. The format is dead. I think even adding Ruffle was a mistake. It still doesn't work for many flash files, some browsers and devices. The best you can do if you care about old posts is to convert them to videos and upload.

I know it's very convenient to have a whole program in web in one file. Maybe some day there will be a format like ugoira - js scripts with sprites/sounds in a zip

Username_Hidden said:

I do also think that flash files should be allowed again, however i don't think there is a need to spam every few months.

every several months is hardly "spamming". i'm just trying to continue conversation on the topic.

pantsukiller said:

It's time to let it go. The format is dead. I think even adding Ruffle was a mistake. It still doesn't work for many flash files, some browsers and devices. The best you can do if you care about old posts is to convert them to videos and upload.

I know it's very convenient to have a whole program in web in one file. Maybe some day there will be a format like ugoira - js scripts with sprites/sounds in a zip

Read Nameless Contributor's post above, unless that's too much for you to handle.

If device compatibility is an issue, it's easy to see that a post is a flash and not tap it if it's not compatible with your device.

Whether there are better alternatives is irrelevant.

Aqros161 said:

If device compatibility is an issue, it's easy to see that a post is a flash and not tap it if it's not compatible with your device.
Whether there are better alternatives is irrelevant.

I don't think the site needs posts that unavailible to users. And now evazion has to keep track on Ruffle and fix it every month just because of 500 old posts.

Flash as a format is dead and not coming back. Ruffle is alpha-quality software that either doesn't work on most posts, or that frequently breaks working posts between releases. I don't want to allow people to upload new posts that either don't work, or that break on a weekly basis every time I update Ruffle.

If it's a music video or animation, then I think you're better off converting it to a video. If it's a game, then I think it's off-topic. We're not a Flash games site and I don't think those posts should have been allowed to begin with.

Even before this, we only had one Flash upload in 2020, two in 2019, and two in 2018. Nobody was uploading it even when it was allowed. We've already had years to archive everything, but there was just no interest.

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