Honkai Series tag clean proposal

nonamethanks said:

Forgive me if I'm missing something in this discussion, but if the characters have armor that is shared across different characters, then the armor itself should get its own tag, rather than the character wearing the armor. Fate is different because each costume is restricted to its own character, but any other franchise having shared armor typically has a tag for each armor (first example that comes to mind is gold saint, which refers to the gold armor from Saint Seiya).

In fact, for Fate itself we have the various Heroic Spirit general tags because those outfits are shared across characters.

Or am I misunderstanding this topic's arguments?

This would, as far as I'm aware, only apply to Kiana Kaslana (White Comet), and I'm not fully convinced it actually would. White Comet is personalized for each owner, Kiana's White Comet is unique to her. When I played Honkai, for about a year, I never saw anyone else even wearing a similar outfit, much less one identical to hers.

The argument is over nuking them, because Honkai is almost as bad as Fate when it comes to recycling character designs, resulting in some tag names being inconsistent with in game lore.

I see someone went ahead and made yet another battlesuit tag for Roza even though Delta is her own character (words by the developers themselves). If anyone else has something to say on the matter now is the time.

Rozaliya Olenyeva (Delta)

Ok, I'm finally back.

New battlesuits have been released and the lore develops even further. I realize this series is somewhat niche so here's a TL;DR for those who don't want to read all the thread:

First there's the incorrect way of tagging including battlesuit names in the character tags, which is incorrect since the character is no different. There's also the fact that in a good number of occasions these battlesuits were not made especifically for these characters, I.e. they are massproduced or there more of them as shown in this panel of the manga.

e.g. Kiana Kaslana and Kiana Kaslana (White Comet), or Raiden Mei and Raiden Mei (Crimson Impulse)

Second is users using the character selection screen of the game as basis for character tags, which can lead to confusion since a lot of characters there do not have their actual name displayed for gameplay reasons. As result there are a good number of characters tagged incorrectly.

e.g. Theresa Apocalypse (Starlit Astrologos) who is not actually Theresa but Zhuge Kongming (Honkai Impact) who just looks like her, or Rita Rossweisse (Fallen Rosemary) who is not actually Rita but the Irene Adler of Honkai.

It's worth noting that miHoYo has made the separation between these characters clear several times, which can be seen in images or videos.

I would also like to point out that the previous point can also lead to people adding the tags of main characters to look-alike characters.

Converting Tags

The solution I propose for these issues is converting the battlesuit tags into general tags, except in some specific instances. That way it'll still be easy for people to find what the're searching while also cleaning the exesive amount of character tags and fixing the overlaping tags. It would also make cosplay tagging much more simple, just by adding the character_cosplay tag and the battlesuit general tag. Here's how I would do it:

Kiana Kaslana (White Comet) -> White Comet
Kiana Kaslana (Valkyrie Ranger) -> Valkyrie Ranger
Kiana Kaslana (Divine Prayer) -> Divine Prayer
Kiana Kaslana (Knight Moonbeam) -> Knight Moonbeam
Kiana Kaslana (Void Drifter) -> Void Drifter
Raiden Mei (Crimson Impulse) -> Crimson Impulse
Raiden Mei (Valkyrie Bladestrike) -> Valkyrie Bladestrike
Raiden Mei (Shadow Dash) -> Shadow Dash
Raiden Mei (Striker Fulminata) -> Striker Fulminata
Raiden Mei (Aeterba Purum) -> Aeterna Purum
Raiden Mei (Lightning Empress) -> Lightning Empress
Bronya Zaychik (Valkyrie Chariot) -> Valkyrie Chariot
Bronya Zaychik (Yamabuki Armor) -> Yamabuki Armor
Bronya Zaychik (Snowy Sniper) -> Snowy Sniper
Bronya Zaychik (Wolf's Dawn) -> Wolf's Dawn
Bronya Zaychik (Wolf's Dawn) -> Wolf's Dawn
Bronya Zaychik (Dimension Breaker) -> Dimension Breaker
Bronya Zaychik (Black Nucleus) -> Black Nucleus
Murata Himeko (Battle Storm) -> Battle Storm
Murata Himeko (Scarlet Fusion) -> Scarlet Fusion
Murata Himeko (Arctic Kriegsmesser) -> Arctic Kriegsmesser
Murata Himeko (Blood Rose) -> Blood Rose
Murata Himeko (Vermillion Knight) -> Vermillion Knight
Fu Hua (Valkyrie Accipter) -> Valkyrie Accipter
Fu Hua (Night Squire) -> Night Squire
Fu Hua (Phoenix) -> Phoenix
Fu Hua (Shadow Knight) -> Shadow Knight
Fu Hua (Azure Empyrea) -> Azure Empyrea
Theresa Apocalypse (Valkyrie Pledge) -> Valkyrie Pledge
Theresa Apocalypse (Sakura Rondo) -> Sakuno Rondo
Theresa Apocalypse (Violet Executer) -> Violet Executer
Theresa Apocalypse (Celestial Hymn) -> Celestial Hymn
Theresa Apocalypse (Twilight Paladin) -> Twilight Paladin
Yae Sakura (Gyakushinn Miko) -> Gyakushinn Miko
Yae Sakura (Flame Sakitama) -> Flame Sakitama
Kallen Kaslana (Sixth Serenade) -> Sixth Serenade
Rita Rossweisse (Umbral Rose) -> Umbral Rose
Rita Rossweisse (Phantom Iron) -> Phantom Iron
Rita Rossweisse (Artemis) -> Artemis
Rita Rossweisse (Vow of Roses) -> Vow of Roses
Rita Rossweisse (Icy Sea Spray) -> Icy Sea Spray
Rita Rossweisse (Hanafuda Oyabun) -> Hanafuda Oyabun
Seele Vollerei (Swallowtail Phantasm) -> Swallowtail Phantasm
Seele Vollerei (Stygian Nymph) -> Stygian Nymph
Bianka Durandal Ataegina (Bright Knight: Excelsis) -> Bright Knight: Excelsis
Durandal (Valkyrie Gloria) -> Valkyrie Gloria

Note: There are some battlesuits or costumes in the list that user specific in the story but still included due to easier tagging. Also some costumes are not tagged.

Particular Cases

Kiana Kaslana (Herrscher of the Void) I think we need a different approach because this is actually Sirin controlling Kiana's body. Leaving aside fan theories that arise from teases in the official lore, practically speaking and following Danbooru's rules Kiana and Sirin are two different characters. However, there's also the fact that Kiana is able to control that power by herself later in the story. We also need to take into account that even if there can be several instances of the same Herrscher, their clothing will always be different, so even if we have two different Herrschers of the Void their tags will need to be different. In Sirin's case she even has two different forms as Herrscher of the Void, normal and Ascendant. So this is what I would do:

Kiana Kaslana (Herrscher of the Void) -> Herrscher of the Void (Kiana Kaslana)

Sirin gets two new general tags:

Herrscher of the Void (Sirin)
Herrscher of the Void (Sirin) (Ascendant)

Now let's say I'm going to tag an image with Kiana Herrscher of the Void that's being controlled by Sirin:

Kiana Kaslana -> Her body.
Sirin -> The one in control.
Herrscher of the Void (Kiana Kaslana) -> The current Herrscher of the Void we are seeing.

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Raiden Mei (Herrscher of Thunder) is another interesting case since she has two Herrscher forms. First is this one which is the playable one, second is this one which is her first actual Herrscher form, appears in the manga and originates in Benghuai Xueyuan (Gun Girl Z). Here's what I suggest:

Raiden Mei (Herrscher of Thunder) -> Herrscher of Thunder (Raiden Mei) (Honkai Impact)
Herrscher of Thunder (Raiden Mei) (Benghuai Xueyuan)

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Bronya Zaychik (Herrscher of Reason) is a case quite different from the rest. There have been three Herrschers of Reason in the story of the Current Era, the first two, Welt Joyce and Welt Yang were male and Bronya is the third one. Curious thing with male Herrschers is that they do not get flashy costumes like female Herrschers, probably due to particular reasons in each case. Still, I think it'd be a good idea to add Bronya's name to the tag for consistency.

Bronya Zaychik (Herrscher of Reason) -> Herrscher of Reason (Bronya Zaychik)

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Herrscher of Sentience doesn't have tag yet, and she's also a new character. This is what I'd do:

Herrscher of Sentience (Hua). She already has the character tag Hua (Honkai Impact).

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Theresa Apocalypse (Starlit Astrologos) is Zhuge Kongming, a completely different character from Theresa but that looks like her. You can visit the wiki for more information.

Theresa Apocalypse (Starlit Astrologos) -> Starlit Astrologos This is Zhuge's battlesuit, she already has a character tag.

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Theresa Apocalypse (Luna Kindred) is a different character, just like Zhuge Kongming. In short, she originates in an event called Sanguine Nights and has a completely different backstory there. After that she has appeared in a variety of different events (not confirmed if it's the same Luna Kindred) and just like Zhuge she has a close connection with Captain. In the event she was also called Theresa, I believe her tag can be left as it is. Sometimes she's also called Tericula in a joking manner.

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Yae Sakura (Goushinnso Memento) is very weird. First she was introduced as a videogame character in a game made by Otto called Kallen Fantasy VII. After that Memento appeared in the main story as Sakura (without Yae) of the Previous Era, who was a comrade of Kevin Kaslana. I'd be fine with renaming the tag to Sakura (Goushinnso Memento) or Sakura (Previous Era) but I want to hear opinions first.

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Yae Sakura (Darkbolt Jonin) is Yae Kasumi who is a separate character. Practically speaking she's Yae Sakura from another universe and had a different backstory from a certain point. She originated in an event called Sanka Saga.

Yae Sakura (Darkbolt Jonin) -> Darkbolt Jonin This is her battlesuit tag, she already has a character tag.

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Kallen Kaslana (Ritual Imayoh) originated from the same videogame as Memento and has only appeared there. This basically means she is a different character of the actual Kallen. I'd personally rename the tag like this:

Kallen Kaslana (Ritual Imayoh) -> Kallen Kaslana (Kallen Fantasy VII) then add a general tag for the costume Ritual Imayoh

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Kallen Kaslana (Sin Hunter) is Kallen from the Sanguine Nights event, same event as Luna Kindred, meaning she's Kallen from an alternate timeline/universe. Not sure what to do with this one.

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Rita Rossweisse (Maid of Celestia) is Rita from Zhuge Kongming's universe. It can be left as it is but also need a general tag for the costume itself.

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Rita Rossweisse (Fallen Rosemary) is Irene Adler from an alternate timeline, she was introduced in an event called Rosemary's Floriograph. It was later revealed that she's actually a Rita that travels between bubble universes. She hangs in later events too with Zhuge in the Captain's Hyperion. Considering she was introduced as Irene Adler I think renaming the tag would be a good idea, especially since the reveal is supposed to be a spoiler. However, it's also worth noting that there's an actual Irene Adler and she even has art.

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Rozaliya Olenyeva (Fervent Tempo) is a different character from another universe, first introduced in Honkai Quest. She used to be Rozaliya but she changed after her accident and losing her sister. Now goes by the codename of Delta.

Rozaliya Olenyeva (Fervent Tempo) -> Delta (Honkai Impact)

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Seele Vollerie (Dream Seeker) is Seele from the same event as Delta.

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Durandal (Imperial Regalia) is Durandal from Zhuge's universe.

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Here's also like to rename the following tag:

Susannah (Honkai Impact) -> Susannah Manatt

There are other cases like Wendy where she is a Herrscher but not a playable character. I think it'd be a good idea to create a Herrscher tag for her too but I would also like to hear what people have to say.

ManularChimera4 said:

Converting Tags

The solution I propose for these issues is converting the battlesuit tags into general tags, except in some specific instances. That way it'll still be easy for people to find what they're searching while also cleaning the excessive amount of character tags and fixing the overlapping tags. It would also make cosplay tagging much more simple, just by adding the character_cosplay tag and the battlesuit general tag. Here's how I would do it

Note: There are some battlesuits or costumes in the list that user specific in the story but still included due to easier tagging. Also some costumes are not tagged.

I would propose adding a _(honkai_impact) qualifier to the battlesuit tags - some of them are generic enough that a qualifier is necessary, and if some battlesuits get the qualifier, may as well give them all the qualifier, for consistency's sake.

Damian0358 said:

I would propose adding a _(honkai_impact) qualifier to the battlesuit tags - some of them are generic enough that a qualifier is necessary, and if some battlesuits get the qualifier, may as well give them all the qualifier, for consistency's sake.

Agreed. I was thinking the same.

ManularChimera4 said:

The solution I propose for these issues is converting the battlesuit tags into general tags, except in some specific instances. That way it'll still be easy for people to find what the're searching while also cleaning the exesive amount of character tags and fixing the overlaping tags. It would also make cosplay tagging much more simple, just by adding the character_cosplay tag and the battlesuit general tag. Here's how I would do it:

Note: There are some battlesuits or costumes in the list that user specific in the story but still included due to easier tagging. Also some costumes are not tagged.

I've already explained my stance on this.

• General tags are inherently less reliable.
• It doesn't make sense for an outfit unique to one character being a general tag, a handful of (cosplay) posts don't change that.
• It wouldn't even make cosplay tagging any simpler, you're still adding three extra tags to every cosplay post: Character, Character (outfit), Character (cosplay). You're just swapping it from two character tags and one general tag to one character tag and two general tags. General tags that are harder to find without already knowing about them.
• "Excessive amount of character tags" is a subjective problem.

just by adding the character_cosplay tag

This part needs special mention. We should already be doing this. Individual outfit tags don't need their own (cosplay) tags. Whether you're wearing White Comet or Void Drifter or whatever, you're still just cosplaying as Kiana Kaslana.

Kiana_kaslana*(cosplay) only returns 18 posts, and most of them are White Comet. All of them should just be kiana kaslana (cosplay).

Particular Cases

Kiana Kaslana (Herrscher of the Void) I think we need a different approach because this is actually Sirin controlling Kiana's body. Leaving aside fan theories that arise from teases in the official lore, practically speaking and following Danbooru's rules Kiana and Sirin are two different characters. However, there's also the fact that Kiana is able to control that power by herself later in the story. We also need to take into account that even if there can be several instances of the same Herrscher, their clothing will always be different, so even if we have two different Herrschers of the Void their tags will need to be different. In Sirin's case she even has two different forms as Herrscher of the Void, normal and Ascendant. So this is what I would do:

Kiana Kaslana (Herrscher of the Void) -> Herrscher of the Void (Kiana Kaslana)

Herrscher is a title, not a person. The visually identifiable character should be the primary name of the tag, not their title. We see Kiana Kaslana. We know she's being controlled by Sirin, but we don't see that. Tagging it as if Herrscher of the Void is its own separate entity, and not a title shared by two or three people, is misleading.

Sirin gets two new general tags:

Herrscher of the Void (Sirin)
Herrscher of the Void (Sirin) (Ascendant)

This is a terrible idea. Character specific general tags are a terrible idea, and completely defeat the purpose of being "general" tags. (Cosplay) tags aren't a relevant justification here because there aren't any Sirin (cosplay) posts, and I doubt we'll ever see more than a handful in the foreseeable future. Honkai character cosplay posts number less than 100 as it is, they shouldn't even be a factor in this.

Now let's say I'm going to tag an image with Kiana Herrscher of the Void that's being controlled by Sirin:

Kiana Kaslana -> Her body.
Sirin -> The one in control.
Herrscher of the Void (Kiana Kaslana) -> The current Herrscher of the Void we are seeing

I believe I already explained this, but we tag what we see, not what we know. If Sirin herself isn't visually present, then we don't tag her. Doing it your way means searching Sirin is now filled with Kiana Kaslana in her Herrscher of the Void appearance, which are 10 times the number of Sirin posts, and with 99% certainty anyone wanting images of Sirin isn't wanting to sift through 200 posts of Kiana Kaslana to find the 20 Sirin posts. All you've done is force people to search Sirin -Kiana_Kaslana.

On top of that you've replaced a character tag with an identical general tag. Which again begs the question of why it needs to be a general tag if it's serving the exact same purpose as the character tag it replaced, while being easier to overlook.

blindVigil said:

I've already explained my stance on this.

• General tags are inherently less reliable.
• It doesn't make sense for an outfit unique to one character being a general tag, a handful of (cosplay) posts don't change that.
• It wouldn't even make cosplay tagging any simpler, you're still adding three extra tags to every cosplay post: Character, Character (outfit), Character (cosplay). You're just swapping it from two character tags and one general tag to one character tag and two general tags. General tags that are harder to find without already knowing about them.
• "Excessive amount of character tags" is a subjective problem.

*I think I've provided plenty of examples to prove why character tags have not been reliable too.
*You don't explain why it doesn't make sense, not to mention it'd wouldn't change nothing more than the type of tags that already exist.
*It would still be the correct way of tagging. Those are Danbooru's rules.

• Not when it comes to making things clear to the people who know nothing about Honkai, which is something we both prioritize. Since this is gacha, some could think that White Comet and Knight Moonbeam are 2 completely separated characters by assosiating it with how other gachas work. And that's just one example.

This part needs special mention. We should already be doing this. Individual outfit tags don't need their own (cosplay) tags. Whether you're wearing White Comet or Void Drifter or whatever, you're still just cosplaying as Kiana Kaslana.

Kiana_kaslana*(cosplay) only returns 18 posts, and most of them are White Comet. All of them should just be kiana kaslana (cosplay).

I kinda agree and I wouldn't mind if that was the case, but it can also be done for accuracy.

Herrscher is a title, not a person. The visually identifiable character should be the primary name of the tag, not their title.

Which is why I suggested changing it to a general tag. That change would mean focusing on the costume that the Herrscher is wearing, which is why Sirin or Mei have multiple of them.

We see Kiana Kaslana. We know she's being controlled by Sirin, but we don't see that. Tagging it as if Herrscher of the Void is its own separate entity, and not a title shared by two or three people, is misleading.

Correction, we do see Sirin controlling Kiana's body, which is when both of her eyes are yellow color. You can even see this difference in the anime cutscene that came out yesterday. I'm not completely sure about what you mean in that second part, though.

This is a terrible idea. Character specific general tags are a terrible idea, and completely defeat the purpose of being "general" tags. (Cosplay) tags aren't a relevant justification here because there aren't any Sirin (cosplay) posts, and I doubt we'll ever see more than a handful in the foreseeable future. Honkai character cosplay posts number less than 100 as it is, they shouldn't even be a factor in this.

I'm surprised you would say this, considering you're fine with having character tags for battlesuits which don't even go beyond the single digit, and yet you want to make it easier for people to find what they want. Granted, there's not a lot of Sirin art (on Danbooru) but I'd argue my suggestion would help order things when I upload more of it.

I believe I already explained this, but we tag what we see, not what we know. If Sirin herself isn't visually present, then we don't tag her. Doing it your way means searching Sirin is now filled with Kiana Kaslana in her Herrscher of the Void appearance, which are 10 times the number of Sirin posts, and with 99% certainty anyone wanting images of Sirin isn't wanting to sift through 200 posts of Kiana Kaslana to find the 20 Sirin posts. All you've done is force people to search Sirin -Kiana_Kaslana.

I already explained this too, but we do see her possessing Kiana, they key are the yellow eyes versus Kiana's blue eyes. Plus people searching for Sirin would come to know that Sirin is also present in some of Herrscher of the Void images. That'd be like saying that Ginyu possessing Goku's body doesn't actually have Ginyu in it but some combination between Goku and Ginyu. In Sirin's case you even have a visual reference to show that she's possessing Kiana's body.

On top of that you've replaced a character tag with an identical general tag. Which again begs the question of why it needs to be a general tag if it's serving the exact same purpose as the character tag it replaced, while being easier to overlook.

To order the tags for correct tagging.

If it's a costume only worn by a single character, and is basically a skin variant, it should be a character tag. See evazion's opinions on the topic on forum #172656 (in that case it's about fate but he's brought it up several times before in other topics).

ManularChimera4 said:

*It would still be the correct way of tagging. Those are Danbooru's rules.

Stop bringing up rules. I definitely covered this the last time you mentioned outfits being character tags being against the rules. Danbooru does not have tagging rules, we have tagging guidelines, which change with time and are not necessarily mandatory to follow. If any of these tags were against the "rules" then they wouldn't exist in the first place.

Regardless, the site's owner, as NNT pointed out, thinks outfits unique to specific characters should be character tags, and I strongly agree. We're not changing all of these tags into general tags. Unless a majority vote agrees to it, which at this point is very unlikely, we're just not doing it.

nonamethanks said:

If it's a costume only worn by a single character, and is basically a skin variant, it should be a character tag. See evazion's opinions on the topic on forum #172656 (in that case it's about fate but he's brought it up several times before in other topics).

I've already explained this, but I believe that applying the same logic as FGO or any similar gacha to Honkai will do more harm than good. Even the most casual anime fans will know about the movies and Grand Order, and the way the characters work in these series. In Fate even simple costume changes will mean that that character is already a different version than the original one, sometimes with different backstory even. Thing is, Honkai characters and battlesuits do not work like that, when someone wears a different costume or battlesuit that person is the same as before but in a different point in time (with some exception already mentioned in a previous post). That's why I think that by using that same exact way of tagging it'll just position Honkai in the same category as FGO and the like. I would like to read what evazion thinks about this, even if I doubt it'd change their opinion.

This also doesn't address the fact that there are characters incorrectly tagged as other characters due to these battlesuit names, which can only be solved by editing or removing battlesuit tags.