I like the idea of having a thread for the deletions, but one must consider that it's a great idea on paper and not really in practice. Such a thread imo would be very inefficient.
I'd prefer the flagging idea, as it at least requires a second opinion before nuking the image but doesn't require a jury to debate on each image.
A list of the items deleted that others can review over should resolve any real problems of disagreeing on what was deleted, since you can simply request that a image be undeleted. Of course asking for such a list is probably a huge hassle in itself.
If you're unsure whether something should be deleted then flag it. That's what we have our crack team of Janimoderadmins for. If you're unsure if something should be flagged then you're an indecisive bastard and shouldn't be having an opinion in the first place. :D
If people really want a discussion thread for deletions, I guess I can't really stop that, but I think flagging is fine for that and I'd go even further and say that the "appeals" thread should be converted into a "flagging" system whereby you can appeal posts that you uploaded or favorited after they were deleted. With like, a maximum of one or two posts per day.
Oh and obviously I agree with LaC and 0xCC regarding photos.
Of course, when I'm talking about the thread, I mean it as something dedicated to this process of removing images previously protected by the grandfather clause.Creating an ongoing thread for discussing every single flagged image on the site would get out of hand and probably be all kinds of retarded.
The problem with the thread is that, as LaC mentioned, it goes against our normal policy of "don't delete what another mod has approved". The problem with these "grandfathered" posts is that no mod approved them because they existed before we had a mod queue. So why not just feed all old posts into the mod queue? 8)
Speaking of the non-anime pool, I added a few more posts to it that I came across that were missed. So if a mod could look through those and see if they warrant deletion (I think they do, but I'm no mod) it would be appreciated.
Also, is the huge gap of blank pages at the back of the photo pages from the deleted posts going to go away eventually? What causes that anyways?
0xCCBA696 said: The problem with the thread is that, as LaC mentioned, it goes against our normal policy of "don't delete what another mod has approved". The problem with these "grandfathered" posts is that no mod approved them because they existed before we had a mod queue.
Thus why the "don't delete what another mod approved" argument is invalid for old off topic posts. What should apply is only the Danbooru rules. The rules specify anime related images. Albert gave explicit approval to remove the off topic porn/av idol stuff (which is what I'm mass deleting). I still don't understand why you'd react so strongly to that other than for the sake of having something to object to. Nobody is (to my knowledge anyway) wantonly mass deleting anime art from Danbooru. Or even anime related photographs.
While I agreed with the four example deletions Fence made, 1) I'm not personally deleting such images as I come across them right now and 2) people are letting those disproportionately color their understanding of this thread and assuming that the deletions are somehow completely arbitrary. Even though I've let live (because they're anime related) a number of things so far that seemed not to meet Danbooru standards.
I understand what it is you are worried about, but that worry isn't coming to pass, to my knowledge.
So why not just feed all old posts into the mod queue? 8)
I don't think that would be practical. It'd also result in VASTLY more deletions than you're worried about seeing now. Or alternately, it only takes one person with queue authority to object to the principle of reevaluating the old images and just go reapproving everything to invalidate the process. We need some clearer idea of what exactly you'd like to see in the queue.
Kayako said: Also, is the huge gap of blank pages at the back of the photo pages from the deleted posts going to go away eventually? What causes that anyways?
Some sort of caching issue, I think. I do believe it goes away eventually, or at least I'd expect to encounter it more if it didn't.
jxh2154 said: I still don't understand why you'd react so strongly to that other than for the sake of having something to object to.
Hey now.
While I agreed with the four example deletions Fence made, 1) I'm not personally deleting such images as I come across them right now and 2) people are letting those disproportionately color their understanding of this thread and assuming that the deletions are somehow completely arbitrary. Even though I've let live (because they're anime related) a number of things so far that seemed not to meet Danbooru standards.
I understand what it is you are worried about, but that worry isn't coming to pass, to my knowledge.
OK, good.
I don't think that would be practical. It'd also result in VASTLY more deletions than you're worried about seeing now. Or alternately, it only takes one person with queue authority to object to the principle of reevaluating the old images and just go reapproving everything to invalidate the process. We need some clearer idea of what exactly you'd like to see in the queue.
Of course, this presumes that the people with access to the mod queue aren't petty, and follow the standard procedure, judging old posts in the same way they would judge new uploads. This is, undoubtedly, a highly improbably presumption.
But yes, I literally meant that if we are to remove the "grandfather clause" (I'm really getting sick of that phrase, haha), what should replace it should be the same process that any other post which has not been reviewed by a moderator/janitor is subjected to - the mod queue. Of course, that process could do with a little modification in order to handle the massive number of "old posts", but it might work if we, say, let a few trickle in every day until it were done. This would take a fair amount of programming, though.
But remember, it only takes one person to go through the mod queue and approve everything to make the mod queue itself pointless - or similarly to go through and delete everything. The mod queue works (more or less) because the people with access to it are trusted not to do that.
Sorry, didn't really mean that the way it probably sounded. I know you're not trying to be petty. I think what I should have said is that the objections seemed far more philosophical than practical, objecting to the "idea" of deleting the old posts, even while they'd most likely agree that the deletions thus far were valid. It felt like it was finally time for (prudent, of course) action, but theory was unnecessarily holding it back again. However, you seemed okay with the elaboration I offered so I think we're on the same page.
Of course, that process could do with a little modification in order to handle the massive number of "old posts", but it might work if we, say, let a few trickle in every day until it were done. This would take a fair amount of programming, though.
In some ways, I would like it. It'd wind up getting rid of a lot more things I don't think should be here than I ever could, even if I went out of my mind and deleted as much as I could. Which I don't intend to do =P
It's also more "fair", although it poses much bigger logistical hurdles. But it depends on what we're trying to get out this. Are we looking to subject all old posts to the current quality standards, or simply to the current rules? I don't know if I'm wording that right, but in my head they seem like very different things. At this moment, I approve of the "rules" approach, and am mixed on whether to take it a step farther to the "quality" approach. The quality standard would result in vastly more deletions. Many tens of thousands by the end, minimum, I'd bet.
It's an idea worth exploring, however.
But remember, it only takes one person to go through the mod queue and approve everything to make the mod queue itself pointless - or similarly to go through and delete everything. The mod queue works (more or less) because the people with access to it are trusted not to do that.
True. I just felt like emotions were running higher over this issue than they would for the standard old mod queue procedure and there was greater chance of someone altering their usual standards of what does or doesn't get an approve.
jxh2154 said: It's also more "fair", although it poses much bigger logistical hurdles. But it depends on what we're trying to get out this. Are we looking to subject all old posts to the current quality standards, or simply to the current rules?
This is a good point. But there's a finer point here. Posts can fall under four categories: good quality and rule-abiding, good quality and rule-breaking, bad quality and rule-abiding, or bad quality and rule-breaking. The first should obviously stay (I'd accept in the mod queue), the second is debatable (I'd often accept in the mod queue), the third is vaguely debatable (I'd normally ignore in the mod queue), and the fourth should obviously go (I'd ignore in the mod queue, if only because it'd probably be wrong to just delete it out of hand).
It would seem, from your phrasing, that you don't acknowledge the existence of group two, and that is the one I am the most worried about in this deletion effort.
0xCCBA696 said: It would seem, from your phrasing, that you don't acknowledge the existence of group two, and that is the one I am the most worried about in this deletion effort.
As far as the normal mod queue goes, correct. I don't see four separate groups so much as concentric circles.
There's a big circle of "rule abiding". Completely enclosed inside that, there's a smaller circle of "quality". Smatterings of quality might exist outside rule abiding, but if so that's generally of no concern to us. If it were, our rules would be largely meaningless. Example: I deleted some awesome panoramic images of cities uploaded from Wikipedia. They were quality, but they were also 100% outside danbooru's scope. I'd think nobody would seriously object to this.
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you'd accept a rule breaking post if you thought it to be "good". No mod, admin or janitor should ever knowingly accept a rule breaking post. I have to be misreading that in some fashion but I'm not sure in what way.
When you talk of "this deletion effort", do you mean the outright deletions? Those I'm done for now, having cleaned the photo tag of the unambiguously off-topic material, leaving many debatable uploads alone.
If you mean feeding old posts into the queue, then I think the same exact standards should apply to those as apply to uploads today (I was actually assuming they'd be fed in without any special flag indicating they're old posts), and that includes the rules. Only seems fair. Although there would need to be some reasonable limit, like only feeding in images older than a year and a half or something like that.
jxh2154 said: I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you'd accept a rule breaking post if you thought it to be "good". No mod, admin or janitor should ever knowingly accept a rule breaking post. I have to be misreading that in some fashion but I'm not sure in what way.
Then maybe I don't know what you mean by "rules". If you're talking about the ToS, then no, though "badly compressed" is to some extent subjective, as is the definition given for "grotesque", though I'd err on the side of caution on that one. I thought you included stuff like "no yaoi", "no caps", etc., and to some extent "irrelevant" - for example post #203889. Come to think of it, has the ToS changed recently? It seems to be a bit sparser (and thus a bit harder for posts that would be "good" in my opinion to break rules) than I remember...
When you talk of "this deletion effort", do you mean the outright deletions? Those I'm done for now, having cleaned the photo tag of the unambiguously off-topic material, leaving many debatable uploads alone.
0xCCBA696 said: If you're talking about the ToS, then no, though "badly compressed" is to some extent subjective, as is the definition given for "grotesque", though I'd err on the side of caution on that one.
Right, rules = TOS.
I thought you included stuff like "no yaoi", "no caps", etc.
Caps often don't meet the quality threshold, but they're not outside the rules threshold, and thus can't be rejected out of hand. Hell, I uploaded a Sorakake cap (well, one I stitched, I don't really do straight one frame caps) recently. As for yaoi, I am unlikely to approve it in the queue, but that's different from deleting or banning it outright.
and to some extent "irrelevant" - for example post #203889.
Irrelevant (off topic) is in the ToS ("You will make a best faith effort to upload only high quality anime-related images."), so it's covered by rules.
The one you link seems to have been uploaded to complement an on topic post, post #179377. Though 1) I think links to originals should just be left in comments rather than hosted on danbooru and 2) if it is hosted here, the anime image should always be the parent. The Dali image may be the original, but the ONLY purpose it could possibly serve here is to supplement the on-topic anime image. So, I've made the Azumanga image the parent.
I would say yes, none of the ones that are left are very good.
Also: since the grandfather clause is dead a buried, can I flag some of the poorly drawn? I ask just in case someone's already planning on doing a sweep of the tag.
I'll keep it to >20 at a time as to not bother the mods too much, but I'd like to have them all gone through and the crap banished into oblivion.
