Posted under General
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Hillside_Moose said:
Subjectives do not belong in tags.
As long as people don't use it as an excuse to post Archie comics and whatnot (i.e. the extreme end of the bell curve Albert mentions), I'm fine.
Well, ok. Then I understood you wrong.
Well, in any case: From my side this topic should be over then, since the big issue seems to be out of the way :).
albert said:
The limit is just a guideline to prevent flooding. And yeah, I don't think its unreasonable to ask people to upload fewer than 20 Overwatch posts a day.
Anime styled Overwatch art is one thing. People uploading Liefeld-type art, however, would be the ones I'd use the limits to discourage - even if they're drawing anime copyrights.
Due to the general toothlessness of the 'anime-art' provision of Danbooru, which I view as more-or-less necessary to the site's character and the reason I enjoy it, I'd like to propose the following new standard for deletion:
Any image exhibiting all three WWW traits should be removed:
Western Artist
Western Style
Western IP
This should always be a valid reason for flagging. An image fitting these three characteristics at once definitely doesn't belong here. Can't we agree on that? There needs to be some kind of red line and I think this draws it as far out as possible.
I've argued this many times before, to no avail, but I think it really needs to be said again, since this just keeps happening...
The howto:upload exists for the purpose of providing clarity to those who want to understand what is and is not permissible to upload.
The current standard, as expressed by Albert, seems to be, "The rules are no Western Art, but secretly, that's only if it doesn't meet a somewhat elevated quality standard, in which case, the rules don't apply until such a time as I arbitrarily decide too much has been allowed, and want to swing back the other way and the rules start applying as stated, again, but only retroactive to a likewise arbitrary period of time." This is, needless to say, utterly confusing, and in the anarchic rule-by-consensus-unless-we-annoy-Albert-enough-to-actually-lay-down-some-fiats space that fits into this void, we basically ensure that the squeakiest wheels get the grease. That, in turn, just encourages every wheel to squeak as loud as we can, and there is always a thread like this floating around the forum.
If the standards have changed over the years, that's something worth debating, but at the very least, if you have decided to allow certain things, say that in the howto:upload page. If you can't bring yourself to move things from "generally rejected" to "conditionally accepted" because you feel that's letting your standards slip to change the de jure rules, then maybe you shouldn't let the de facto application of the rules slip so far, either?
The prevalence of doujin/webcomics on this site is something that I, in particular, feel should be updated in the rules; If Danbooru were just an imagedump, I wouldn't bother coming here basically daily, I come for daily updates on my favorite twitter or pixiv fancomics about Touhou and Kantai Collection. Yet, according to the stated howto:upload rules, those are apparently only "conditionally accepted"... even though they seem to have an easier time getting accepted than some of the regular art. (And that is a state of affairs I rather prefer.)
Again, the point of that howto:upload page is to tell new people, in particular, what is and isn't allowed, and it seems the ground has shifted massively beneath the guide's feet since it's been last updated. Even this latest statement by Albert isn't actually reflected in the guide. That makes the howto:upload page worse than worthless, it's actively giving new people misinformation!
Since dealing with how others upload rarely seems to work, it might be more effective to deal with the situation as it is.
With those two categories that currently exist, you could create a (massive) blacklist if desired. I agree it shouldn't necessarily have to be that way, but then again from my point of view all of the tags in my blacklist shouldn't exist on this website but they do... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It would help if there was a Wiki listing all of the western artists and a wiki listing all of the western IPs in one location. With the addition of a western_(style) tag that actually gets populated, you could have the complete trifecta. With that each permutation could be created as a blacklist.
Example blacklist entry:
andrew_whatshisname starcraft_3:_the_starcraftening western_(style)
If the above IP/artist wikis and western_(style) tag did get created, I'm sure you could find someone OTS that could generate such a blacklist automatically for general use.
aceofspudz said:
NWS, would you at least grant the WWW rule is a step forward?
Any sort of clarity and consistency would be a step forward.
Honestly, I don't think we need that first "W". If something looks like a Liefeld drawing, then the race or geographic location of the artist should be totally irrelevant.
Beyond that, Western style and Western IP seems like a fine enough standard, and could be something you could form consistency around. (Deadpool alone shouldn't be here, but Deadpool dressing up as a Mahou Shoujo or in clearly anime art style are fine.)
As far as the DOOM image that sparked this latest round, I get the feeling as if "video games" as a vague subject is considered "anime" on Danbooru, since it seems like it doesn't matter whether it's a Capcom or a Activision game, (and I mean stuff besides Overwatch, like Starcraft,) if it's gaming-related, it gets approved in spite of the rules. I wouldn't really like it, but if the zeitgeist of Danbooru moderation were to just finally up and declare "anime-related AND gaming-related", it would at least be consistent, because it seems the vast majority of non-anime stuff is gaming-related to the point that we had Western-drawn #gamergate political agenda stuff being uploaded for a while.
My thought is to create a basement standard, not a 'general guideline', for definitive rejection.
Since BrokenEagle and NWS both seized upon different elements of this standard, I think that indicates that I'm on the right track for a point of agreement. My point is that we start with what we mostly all agree on doesn't belong. Create a bright line rule and work backwards, rather than create a fuzzy rule that is never enforced anywhere.
In my experience all 'not anime' flags are contested hotly. A more hardline WWW flag would be less contentious, since the only point remaining to be debated would be whether the art was western style, which is often quite clear.
You could still flag works for the vaguer 'not anime' tag, but a WWW is more of a hard 'fuck off.'
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Provence said:
It should always be irrelevant where an artist is coming from.
The point is to create a bottom-line, a common denominator. If a Japanese artist is turning out stuff that violates the other two WWs, it's a case-by-case basis, not a fiat rejection.
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It would be nice to have a clear definition of what a "western style" is. People have called many of my uploads western styled but I don't see how.
And I have a problem with the "western artist" classification. It seems first of all really in contrast to eastern artists so I will refer to that instead. What makes someone an eastern artist, their race and ethnicity, culture, language, or simply where they live; some combination thereof? Moreover is this originating from a Japaonophile impulse? In which case, which countries and peoples would you consider part of the eastern artist label? I could conceivably see someone making an arbitrary cutoff and saying a Thai or Burmese artist isn't 'Eastern' enough. What would this lead to, categorizing artists based on their race and where they are from? Seems like endless and pointless genealogies for people who are often anonymous, and for what purpose exactly.
I think the other WWW points can stand on their own without the western artist one and still make the unambiguous red line you desire. But before I can agree to saying it's good basis for a consensus, western style needs an explanation.
What makes someone an eastern artist
You might blithely pretend as though these distinctions are mysterious but they are not so mysterious in practice. Westerners have western names and affectations. Borderline cases may be adjudicated, but there are a lot less of these. WWW concerns itself with what is undeniable, not what is liminal. A half-Japanese living in Brazil raised by Western parents might credibly claim to be eastern under WWW, but he probably isn't going to be pumping out Liefield drawings in the first place is he?
The rarefied exceptions are not worth scuttling a standard over. The exceptions can be puzzled out on a case-by-case basis. Our present situation is that everything is a case by case basis, which is horrible.
WWW is a confluence of factors. Westerner, Western style, Western IP.
Even if you think it's a valid reason to flag, and I can't really stop you there based on albert's wording a couple months ago, I'm going to disagree with the spirit of your argument, and this "new" flag.
ALL art on Danbooru is judged case by case. It's also judged against the whole. Most people who spend more than a few months coming here get to know its character, what trends are happening and what the fandoms here like. We tolerate differing taste as a matter of compromise.
While your WWW policy comes off sound at first, it's not reasonable from a couple of perspectives:
Western art is always borderline art. Just as furry and guro have both come to carry conditional weight, non-anime and specifically European/American works can fit the standards of design too, even without carrying all the stylization, theme or sourcing. That is what the discussion came to, and there's no giant flood of work. Works that deviate too far are getting flagged, including several I approved a long time before, but I let them go, since it was obvious that there was no way they would be accepted by other approvers. Flagged art that ends up uncontested usually lacks arguable merit from a sufficient standpoint of fitting in, either by the look or the purpose of it. We can't really fit in Warhol stuff for that reason: It's not made for the consumption of the types of fans that come to the site.
The post that keeps getting flagged on the other hand is not specifically a "western" in the drawn-like-Jack Kirby Batmanesque works made in an office in NYC which deviates into the traditional ink-and-paint art that isn't the norm here. It's official video game work done in Photoshop by a professional for a current IP, using the same tools and general design tropes present in many modern games across both sides of the Pacific. Trying to use hard defining points of "Is it Japanese/Anime" or not is pretty pointless here. Many people do come to this site for both the anime and specific types of non-anime that tend to get approved. I have no doubt that more than a few people here would agree with that point.
If it takes NWSiaCB's suggestion that we say Db is an anime+gaming art site, I'd throw my support around that in order to move this forward more constructively. From my perspective, that is already the case. We haven't deviated from the quality standard at all in order to achieve that, and we've facilitated means for people to already avoid such art if they don't want it. More rules adjustments seems unnecessary.
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chodorov said:
It would be nice to have a clear definition of what a "western style" is. People have called many of my uploads western styled but I don't see how.
It's difficult to articulate with words, (or rather, I'd have to use far too many words to do so, as I can easily link some extremely long rants about not only what anime style is, but how it has evolved,) but I can pretty strongly intuit the difference between someone who understands anime-style artwork and people who are just doing an imitation of anime-style when they have clearly learned other styles first, and those influence their work. (In particular, I go into a bookstore, and see "how to draw anime" books that are clearly not drawn by anyone who's spent more than ten minutes looking at anime, and obviously has practiced with western comics. They even have clearly non-Yakuza characters with tattoos on the cover...)
Would you mind linking some of those uploads where you had that problem? I'd like to judge for myself.
buehbueh said:
ALL art on Danbooru is judged case by case. It's also judged against the whole. Most people who spend more than a few months coming here get to know its character, what trends are happening and what the fandoms here like. We tolerate differing taste as a matter of compromise.
While your WWW policy comes off sound at first, it's not reasonable from a couple of perspectives:
Western art is always borderline art. Just as furry and guro have both come to carry conditional weight, non-anime and specifically European/American works can fit the standards of design too, even without carrying all the stylization, theme or sourcing. That is what the discussion came to, and there's no giant flood of work. Works that deviate too far are getting flagged, including several I approved a long time before, but I let them go, since it was obvious that there was no way they would be accepted by other approvers. Flagged art that ends up uncontested usually lacks arguable merit from a sufficient standpoint of fitting in, either by the look or the purpose of it. We can't really fit in Warhol stuff for that reason: It's not made for the consumption of the types of fans that come to the site.
Except there is a "conditionally accepted" category for things in the howto:upload for things that are judged on a case-by-case basis that might get in, but have extra scrutiny... and furry and non-anime are not in it, they are in the "rejected" category. (There is very strong warning against guro, but admission that some level will be accepted, which is a fair enough level of clarity.) If you don't want those rules/guidelines to stand, then you should be getting those rules/guidelines changed.
Saying "everything is negotiable" means there are absolutely no rules but what fits the arbitrary whims of whichever janitors happen to see a post, only countered by the number and persistence of flaggers, which is in turn countered only by number of janitors willing to re-approve it.
buehbueh said:
The post that keeps getting flagged on the other hand is not specifically a "western" in the drawn-like-Jack Kirby Batmanesque works made in an office in NYC which deviates into the traditional ink-and-paint art that isn't the norm here. It's official video game work done in Photoshop by a professional for a current IP, using the same tools and general design tropes present in many modern games across both sides of the Pacific. Trying to use hard defining points of "Is it Japanese/Anime" or not is pretty pointless here. Many people do come to this site for both the anime and specific types of non-anime that tend to get approved. I have no doubt that more than a few people here would agree with that point.
The tools used to make artwork have little bearing upon the style of art. By that standard, is official Minecraft art anime? That was made on a computer by a paid professional artist for a gaming IP. I also think there may be more subtelty to the differences in "art tropes" that distinguish Eastern and Western art than you give credit for, here. While anime is more complex than a single style, with Shoujo looking drastically different from the KyoAni standard that reigns today to something deliberately stylized like anything made by SHAFT, each branch of the art style has a clear pedigree and the Japanese tend to have a far stricter view on what forms are acceptable and where they are willing to deviate in style.
Also, saying that people come here for what gets approved is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a potential Eternal September situation. If we start approving tons of guro art, then guro-art-seeking users will start joining and wanting their guro art uploaded because, hey, that's what they come here for and expect.
Again, the problem is there are no rules but the whims of whoever has the power of approval perpetuating their own tastes. There was a good argument several years ago on these forums about how janitors were becoming a ring species, whose tastes conflicted with one another to the point that conflict over what is and isn't acceptable became inevitable... and it's proven an entirely accurate prediction.
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NWSiaCB said:
There was a good argument several years ago on these forums about how janitors were becoming a ring species, whose tastes conflicted with one another to the point that conflict over what is and isn't acceptable became inevitable... and it's proven an entirely accurate prediction.
And there will be another argument that brings that up again years, maybe even months, from now. Between that point in time and now, have the uploads and approval habits really changed in regards to Western art? I'm not seeing the point in this issue being discussed any further if nothing significant is gonna happen.
To NWSiaCB: It's funny you brought up those "learn to draw manga books" by people who can't really draw well enough to have art that is featured here, regardless of what they're trying to draw. It tends to be pretty cheap looking however it's sliced. I wouldn't defend that type of anime art at all, considering how much I've actually consumed, I know better. Anime is many things, but it's not the debate to actually have here. This debate is on the problem of borderline works and whether we want to be a perma-rules site or a consensus-guidelines site. I'm advocating the latter here.
Conflict is just a normal part of this site, and that's fine. I'm seeing stuff that I wouldn't approve or upload posted by mods and other janitors every day. They see the same rules and get a different idea of what belongs here. The site has been based on a relative consensus standard for most of it's history. In 10 years the rules changed to reflect what the site consensus was. First it was just what everyone wanted, then hard bans on content to clean the mess. Now we're in the era of critically thinking about why many(not all of) these rules were implemented and asking if they make sense anymore. The consensus might change 2 or 3 years from now, but I'm seeing a certain consensus today, at least one spread amongst most mods/janitors/active members/builders. If 5 or so users think the show isn't run as they should, perhaps they're right, but the standard has always been about compromise. You can't have healthy consensus without basic compromise.
On who comes here for what, of course its a self-fulfilling prophecy. We have a set fanbase who comes here and desires specific arbitrary things. And who says the tools DONT matter? There's a reason I brought it up. The site features 90+ percent digital art, beside doujinshi which does tend to be inked. Wouldn't it suck if someone wanted to post hundreds of shitty inktober works drawn on cheap notebook paper right now? That's because this site is biased against traditional media for the same reason it has been biased against western art, photos, guro and furry: shitty artists abusing a free web board to post work that the fanbase in general didn't want, and people with poor taste posting the worst examples of these things. The blanket bans were devised to keep back stuff that didn't look right from getting on. But maybe those bans don't work when the standard is exclusively about content, and people get confused when a solid work is deleted for content and not quality. This is what compromise is about. We let great traditional media on just as we stop doodles from getting on, it didn't take a blanket ban to achieve.
As we go from accepting art for merit beyond content, many have learned to do so for non-japanese works. That's not people wanting to ruin the site, that's regular uploaders, including our staff, who think that it belongs. Whether they're going against the rules as they're written is beside the point here. This is a living system, made of people who each make active decisions on what they think belongs, on a whim or a long term plan.
And as one of the last batch of janitors to have been promoted, I'll say this: all staff have to make reasonable decisions on what belongs here and what doesn't. If someone disagrees with any other persons judgment, they should feel free to speak up, which is already in play here. Some have pined for a few people's demotions, but that's beyond the scope of this forum post. On Eternal September, whether or not we have or will have one, doesn't change the fact we have 4 admins, dozens of mods and janitors, and hundreds of active users ready to flag, ban and delete poor works, and hanging out everyday here does color my views on this, seeing some people take time every day to make sure we don't have forum spam or other kinds of crap get on. If a new user wants to disagree, that's not a problem. Everything is negotiable here, as long as there is an active user base who wants good art, we're going to have to keep thinking about what that good art is, and make rules that sometimes have to change. That's not a flaw, but a feature.
In ending, I don't mind borderline works getting flagged, and I can't deny that aceofspudz has legitimate reason to want a change for clarity on borderline works. But think about it like this: The rules will always be in need of new wording as long as even one person thinks they need to change, even if everyone else wanted them a different way. Western art may not have a prominent place on site, but we're not here to have a battle just because a few users want an anime-only Danbooru. There's nothing wrong with wanting the rules to reflect the users, and while they may not be worded to the desires of the users now, trying to take them further back to what it was before is not worth it when most of the site has moved on.
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I definitely disagree about whether an artist being a "westerner" should matter at all.
If works with western style and western franchise are banned from the site, then there is absolutely no reason that they should suddenly be magically acceptable (or at least, becomes a "case by case basis") simply because the artist happens to be "eastern" which for one is basically impossible to clearly define, and for two has absolutely no reason to factor into the artwork itself.
I think some consideration for the artist is important because there are artists that occasionally make landscape works that can't be interpreted as having eastern or western style. But instead of the artist being western or eastern, it should be their typical focus, especially with the works they made around the same time as whatever work is being called into question.
However, it's critically important to be careful about borderline styles, because a very large number of artists that are rightfully part of whatever japanese pop art movement they fall into, do have such borderline styles. As such, the problem is not "what style of art does the artist usually make", but "does the artist's usual art fall under the site's agenda", which are very different approaches. When you think about it like that, it's obvious. The problem is what steps to take to identify whether the artist's usual art, and the particular piece of art in question, fall under the site's agenda. No, that's not a terminology problem, and yes, that's the moving target at the center of the contention in this thread. There isn't really a dichotomy between eastern and western in the first place. You can come up with extreme examples, but that's not how art styles work.
Of course, guidelines like this are hopelessly abstract and will never have a reasonable solid form, so do whatever almost makes sense.
