Characters with multiple appearances

Hello,
I wanted to ask what was the policy about one character with different appearances like in Sailor Moon, Sword Art Online or Ore, Twintail ni Narimasu.
Indeed, there are :
no implication Sailor_Moon -> Tsukino Usagi but 682 out of 761 pictures with Sailor_Moon 1girl have the tag Tsukino Usagi
no implication Tailred -> Mitsuka Souji but 41 out of 135 pictures with Tailred 1girl have the tag Mitsuka Souji
no implication kirito_(sao-ggo) -> Kirito but 87 pictures with Kirito Androgynous.
no implication prisma_illya -> illyasviel_von_einzbern but 118 out of 123 pictures with prisma_illya 1girl have the tag illyasviel_von_einzbern
I don't know if other copyrights are subject to this.

If these pictures must be tagged with the two chartags, a implication seems logical.
Else, should we change the chartag's wiki by expliciting this policy and begin the correction ?

On a slightly different subject : there is no such distinction for characters from Kampfer. Should we create new chartags corresponding to the Kampfer forms ?

Devil's advocate... why do we even have alternate identity character tags...? The only thing it indicates is a particular costume...

A couple of magical girl-like series without such identifiers include Lyrical Nanoha, Senki Zesshou Symphogear and Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica. It's true that they don't have alternate identities in those series, but so far we haven't created specific character tags for their magical girl costumes, e.g. Miki_Saya_(magical girl), Takamachi_Nanoha_(magical girl), etc.

The only reason I can see for separating their identities would be if it was a spoiler.

Couldn't we just use the tag magical girl or maybe some other tag to indicate the alternate costume? Superhero could fill the same purpose for other such alternate identity cases...

Just a thought...

In the SAO and OreTwi cases at least the characters look radically different in the form with the separate character tag to their usual appearance (in the latter case we're even talking about a different gender). It's far more than just an alternate costume. The likes of Madoka, Symphogear and so forth don't even compare.

The following should allow someone to find what they're looking for in those cases...

• Mitsuka Souji + Genderswap (MTF) for OreTwi
• Kirito + Otoko no Ko for SAO-GGO

BrokenEagle98 said:

• Mitsuka Souji + Genderswap (MTF) for OreTwi

If you're suggesting that genderswapped versions of characters shouldn't have their own unique tags, consider turning your attention to the list of genderswaps. We have quite a few of them.

Yeah, though those aren't all strictly necessary. You lose some searching precision by not having them, sure, but the false positive rate isn't necessarily that high.

Example: Kyonko, the genderswapped version of Kyon from Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu.

Total Search Space=Count (kyon genderswap_(mtf))=965
False Positives=Count (kyon genderswap_(mtf) -kyonko)=24
Error Rate = 24/965 = 2.5%

I'm not arguing to get rid of all alternate character tags, and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be one for the OreTwi or the SAO series... I'm just saying that they're not really necessary.

BrokenEagle98 said:

I'm just saying that they're not really necessary.

The Kyonko tag is somewhat unique in that it was decided in the end that it was supposed to be independent of the Kyon tag, which is why over 50% of Kyonko images are not tagged Kyon. Combined with the Kyon images, Kyonko would make up nearly 41% of all Kyon images on the site (fairly impressive for a fan creation).

When genderswapping becomes very common for a series it starts making searches harder without tags like Kyonko.

Koizumi Itsuki genderswapped images (Koizumi_Itsuki_(female)): 525
Female Koizumi w/ Kyonko (koizumi_itsuki_(female) kyonko): 467
Male Koizumi w/ Kyonko (koizumi_itsuki kyonko -koizumi_itsuki_(female)): 58
Female Koizumi w/ Kyon (koizumi_itsuki_(female) kyon -kyonko): 22

A user would have a hard time finding that 58 and 22 if the only tools they had access to was Koizumi_Itsuki genderswap_(mtf) or Kyon genderswap_(mtf). Also Kyonko alone adds nearly 10% noise to a Koizumi_Itsuki Genderswap_(mtf) search, and trying to purge out that noise by removing Kyon posts would purge nearly 89% of the genderswapped Koizumi results.

Okay, so I hadn't considered those cases where both the original and genderswapped versions of the character tag being added when only the genderswapped version is present, i.e. Kyon and Kyonko when only Kyonko is present, etc for the other characters. I refactored things using Koizumi Itsuki as an example:

Total Search Space = Koizumi_Itsuki + Koizumi_Itsuki_(female) - (Koizumi_Itsuki Koizumi_Itsuki_(female))=1707 + 501 - 234 = 1974
False Positives = Koizumi_Itsuki genderswap_(mtf) -Koizumi_Itsuki_(female) = 53
Error rate: = 53/1974 = 2.6%

However, I do agree that it would make it difficult finding a particular genderswapped version of a character with either the genderswapped or non-genderswapped version of another character, i.e. Kyon&Itsuki(F), Kyonko&Itsuki(F), Kyonko&Itsuki.

I believe that's only the case though if the gender of the characters being swapped is the same...?

Anyways, back to the main topic! ^_^

I see a couple of ways to do this...

------------------------------------------------

1. Alternate identity implies regular identity unless it's a spoiler

• Pros:
• Easy to implement
• Easy to maintain
• Cons:
• Lots of implications to submit
• Loss of search precision
• Inability to easily find all instances of the regular identity without a dependence on accurate tagging of Dual Persona or Multiple Persona tags
• What about instances of cosplay or parody? Do we want the regular identity to also appear in those instances?

2. Alternate identity and regular identity are tagged separately

• Pros:
• Best search precision
• Accounts for cosplay or parody
• Cons:
• Lots of tag gardening
• Difficult to maintain

3. No alternate identity tags

Note: Use modifier tags instead, e.g. magical girl, superhero, genderswap (MTF/FTM), otoko no ko, etc.

• Pros:
• Less character tags to keep track of
• More utilization of modifier tags
• Makes it easier to find more of each category
• Cons:
• Biggest loss of search precision
• Lots of mass updates
• Dependence on modifier tags being properly added

4. A combination approach

Note: Either 1-3 applied individually per copyright series

• Pros:
• Tailored approach
• Cons:
• Need to track which method is being used per series

-----------------------------------------------------

Thoughts?

I'm voting for #2, as it's the most precise and usable option.

#1 is like tagging Clark Kent anytime we have a picture of Superman - they're visually distinct and unless a picture shows both costumes and appearances, it's pointless and mildly spoilery. Plus, with characters who have two distinct forms (like the old Shazam who was a body trade between Billy and his Shazam firm, or the Incredible Hulk), it renders the search less useful.

#3 is problematic for the same reasons I named for #1 - as far as the rest of the Superman cast is concerned, Clark Kent is a valid character and Superman answers to that name because he was raised with it - but removing Superman as a character tag makes no sense either, as that's the copyright name and how people will normally look for images featuring him. With Mamoru from Sailor Moon, tagging any image with his name, even when he's appearing as Tuxedo Mask, makes almost as little sense as searching for Superman by Clark Kent.

#2 is difficult, but precise. Plus, it is pretty much what we're doing now anyways, so we won't need to do a mass retagging as we would with a mass implication or deleting the alternate identity's tag and replacing it with the secret identity plus "superhero" or "magical girl". We'd need to take a lot more time than we might otherwise in searching for various character tags for every magical girl, secret identity, or genderswap character tag and adding the right extra tags.

Just going through the major copyrights would be months of work - and we'd still need to look at original characters who have that secret identity or whatever and then retagging then to remain consistent.

It would make the tagme fix look like a quick batch job.

My preference is #2 (see topic #11123), or at least #4 with a strong lean towards #2. #3 is unacceptable to me. Visually distinct identities should have their own tags wherever possible.

#1 is more problematic the more distinct the appearances are with alternate forms. For something like Sailor Moon, it's not as big of a deal as it looks more like the same character in a different outfit. When you have something like many of the Precure series, where they can have radically different hair colors and lengths, there would be a lot of searching benefits to keeping them separate. See, for example, an untransformed character in their transformed costume: post #1410618. I can tag that as *_(cosplay), about the only way I can think to search the concept, but it's not particularly intuitive (I only just added it after noticing right now).

Bumping this thread since I've been pinged via DMail about something regarding this topic. In particular, it was about when to use Ranma-chan versus when to use Saotome Ranma. Basically, how should "Fanon" genderswap names be handled.

I'm more in favor of using #2 from above, i.e. genderswap identity and regular identity should be tagged separately. The one that pinged me believed it should be #1, i.e. genderswap identity implies regular identity.

What do others think about this?

BrokenEagle98 said:

Bumping this thread since I've been pinged via DMail about something regarding this topic. In particular, it was about when to use Ranma-chan versus when to use Saotome Ranma. Basically, how should "Fanon" genderswap names be handled.

I'm more in favor of using #2 from above, i.e. genderswap identity and regular identity should be tagged separately. The one that pinged me believed it should be #1, i.e. genderswap identity implies regular identity.

What do others think about this?

I'm still voting #2 due to precision and the fact that the same person can be wildly different despite sharing a similar appearance and name (see Saber from Fate Stay/Night and Saber_extra who is a different person despite sharing the same general design). Or characters whose appearance completely change when they go to the alternate identity like Iron Man or Shazam - I don't usually see any sign of. Billy Baxter's childlike size with the transformed body or Tiny Stark's beard when Iron Man's helmet is on.

I'm voting for #1 since it makes most sense. The names characters use when genderswapped should be seen as titles. They don't actually change names and they aren't different characters per say. Not taging them with their real names as well make no sense... it's like saying that they are two different characters.

Setsunator said:

I'm voting for #1 since it makes most sense. The names characters use when genderswapped should be seen as titles. They don't actually change names and they aren't different characters per say. Not taging them with their real names as well make no sense... it's like saying that they are two different characters.

Some of them do. In fact you could argue that most of them do. tailred is a different name from mitsuka souji, after all, and solar metca is a different name again - and while the reader and main characters know that they are the same person (at least in the case of the first two), to the world at large they are effectively three different people.
Going for #1 completely pollutes searches as well - aside from issues like the cosplay and parody example mentioned above, do you really not want a way to search for a character like kishibe souta in a single tag without 92% of the results being of their alter ego? #2 and possibly #4 are the only real options here as I see it.

Setsunator said:

I'm voting for #1 since it makes most sense. The names characters use when genderswapped should be seen as titles. They don't actually change names and they aren't different characters per say. Not taging them with their real names as well make no sense... it's like saying that they are two different characters.

Billy Baxter is not Shazam. Vega from Gear Fighter Dendoh is visually distinctive from her secret identity as Orie Kusanagi due to not having a wig or mask, and she acts far differently in that role than she does as a housewife.

And there's the Tailred example of magical girls who take on a different name and identity as compared to their normal selves. #2 is more effort to maintain but much more precise in searches. It also avoids accidental spoilers which #1 causes by its very existence... which is more of an issue with some series than others. This would also apply to other series where the secret identity is also possessing a separate personality as well as appearance.

Just to further explain what is meant by search precision, I created the following tables outlining what is and isn't possible.

Note: The linked Venn Diagrama was used for the following tables: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UfUTU3vRWfMmvXdFl_lpFCllb6Ve2bkC

Scheme 1

A implies B

Also of note, {A -B} is the null set (i.e. no results), {A B}=={A}, and {~A ~B}=={B}.

Scheme 2

A,B are separate tags

Final thoughts

As can be seen from above, when A and B are tagged separately, there are a lot more search options available.

Also, this site is very much tag what you see, not what you know. Given this, as the identities are visually distinct, it therefore makes the most sense to me to tag them separately.

It would create a lot more tags, but you could hybridize schemes 1 and 2 by having both a catchall tag for all variants and a tag exist specially to cover a character's standard appearance.

It does also create complications on how exactly to name the catchall and regular form tags if both coexist together.

Edit: Such a scheme might be ideal for characters with many different variants, although not necessarily for those with few.

NWF_Renim said:

It would create a lot more tags, but you could hybridize schemes 1 and 2 by having both a catchall tag for all variants and a tag exist specially to cover a character's standard appearance.

It does also create complications on how exactly to name the catchall and regular form tags if both coexist together.

Edit: Such a scheme might be ideal for characters with many different variants, although not necessarily for those with few.

alternate persona perhaps? That way the two tags "character_name -alternate_persona" would allow people to search for the standard appearance without the variants. It might be a hassle to add the implications at first but after that there's no difficulty in keeping it tagged as it's done automatically.

Note: This is assuming scheme 1 or 2 was being followed until this point.

NWF_Renim said:

It would create a lot more tags, but you could hybridize schemes 1 and 2 by having both a catchall tag for all variants and a tag exist specially to cover a character's standard appearance.

It does also create complications on how exactly to name the catchall and regular form tags if both coexist together.

Edit: Such a scheme might be ideal for characters with many different variants, although not necessarily for those with few.

So if I'm understanding the latter part of your argument correctly, you're arguing for #4, with an additional unnamed scheme #5 which would be a hybrid of #1/#2.

5. Hybrid

• Pros:
• Easy finding of all variants with single catch-all tag
• Best search precision (same as #2)
• Cons:
• Hardest to setup of all
• Coordination for all variant names
• Lots of implications to submit (same as #1)

I haven't worked all of the math out yet, but I'm pretty sure the Hybrid approach does not add any search precision. To replicate having a catch-all tag, only the OR operator is needed.

To illustrate, say you have tags 1.a, 1.b, 1.c, 1.d, with a catchall tag of 1.

Then the search {1 -1.b} could be replicated with {~1.a -1.b ~1.c ~1.d}.

Am I missing something with the above...?