Discussion about "lazy" tagging and usage of tagme (Formerly: Reducing tagme postings)

It seems there is a little misunderstanding or I read the wiki page wrong:
"More specifically, it should be kept until an image can be reasonably determined to be tagged to at least "Level 3" as per the howto:tag checklist."
I.e this tag should only be removed when the tags exceeds level 3. Under level three, it's ok to tag the image with tagme. But still, you shouldn't add only "1girl cat brown_hair tagme" or something like that. Like 10 tafs and then it's ok, but still under level 3.
That's also why I just throw the tag when there are more than 40 gentags (the thing Hoobajob mentioned on page 2(?)) that I don't tag the image^^.

Jarlath said:

Everything with a tagme tag (at this time) had reached at least level 3 - they've tagged characters, copyrights, and enough detail that I can reasonably find the post.

Let's use post #2382856 as an example. Current tags are:
? + – 2girls 344k
? + – highres 711k
? + – long hair 981k
? + – multiple girls 542k
? + – sleeping 20k
? + – tagme 13

No mention of colours or expressions or attire - all of which are priority level 0. Missing info on accessories from priority level 1.

and why do you keep bringing up character tags?

kuuderes_shadow said:

Let's use post #2382856 as an example. Current tags are:
? + – 2girls 344k
? + – highres 711k
? + – long hair 981k
? + – multiple girls 542k
? + – sleeping 20k
? + – tagme 13

No mention of colours or expressions or attire and incomplete info on hairstyle - all of which are priority level 0. Missing info on accessories from priority level 1.

and why do you keep bringing up character tags?

Here I'm saying it is an exploit of the tag. Without tagme, there would only be 4 tags (highres shouldn't be looked at, since it's aded automatically). 4 gentags are too low^^.

Nitrogen09 said:

Well, I thought it was okay to add tagme when there are some parts of the image that you don't know which tag should be used? I added tagme to some of my posts for that exact reason.

For those, I ask for help in the comments, especially when I don't know what sort of request tag to use. topic #12251 is a good place to get someone else to look at a post.

I'm guessing years of seeing 10000* results for tagme with posts with one tag have made me sensitive to the usage of it in the first place, and especially now when I see a post with 25 or more tags with tagme thrown into the mix too.

Provence said:

Here I'm saying it is an exploit of the tag. Without tagme, there would only be 4 tags (highres shouldn't be looked at, since it's aded automatically). 4 gentags are too low^^.

Pretty much. That's damned lazy, which bugs me because they could identify the characters and should've been able to tag the obvious things (serafuku, pink hair, etc). And they've been around long enough that they should know better.

Even when I'm in an uploading blitz, I'd rather leave things undertagged until I can go back to clean up a few minutes or a half hour later.

kuuderes_shadow said:

Let's use post #2382856 as an example. Current tags are:
? + – 2girls 344k
? + – highres 711k
? + – long hair 981k
? + – multiple girls 542k
? + – sleeping 20k
? + – tagme 13

No mention of colours or expressions or attire - all of which are priority level 0. Missing info on accessories from priority level 1.

and why do you keep bringing up character tags?

I bring that up because of you know the name (or how to search enough to tag it), you can continue tagging as you know enough to keep searching for appropriate tags.

So now your suggestion is to getting rid of tagme entirely?

Nitrogen09 said:

So now your suggestion is to getting rid of tagme entirely?

I would prefer it be removed or have its definition tightly restricted - as the wiki for it states, it's not a crutch for the lazy. Often enough, you can get a post to level 2 without too much effort, as a post that isn't level 0 or 1 tagged probably won't get approved since you've not even met minimum tagging requirements. And with digital art, it can be hard to determine the type of media uses (unless something is obviously a scanned traditional media creation), so Level 3 isn't impossible if you're able to search well enough (or know the copyright or characters in the art you're uploading) to tag it.

Let me throw a few of my posts up for public criticism:

post #2383216 - what did I miss, and would this be at level 2?

post #2375621 - I missed the popped_button tag here. What else needs fixing to reach level 3 or 4?

Seeing posts tagged like 2383216 using tagme in them does irk me somewhat.

Jarlath said:

post #2383216 - what did I miss, and would this be at level 2?

/sbg /wbg bust black_eyes

Rastamepas said:

/sbg /wbg bust black_eyes

eye colour is accounted for with grey eyes

Can add hair ribbon there too.

To get rid of this tag is not a good idea.
First it's not possible to do (it can get removed to zero, but after one week, there will be 70 posts again) and second that's against the purpose of this tag when one "forbid" the usage.
I only have two problems with the tag:
1. When an image is only tagged to Level 0 of the checklist. That would be...3-5 tags at most.
2. When an image is tagged much further then Level 3 of the checklist. Then there is just no need for this tag. And something can always be added to an image. If I would go after that logic, then out of the 2,4 million posts we have here, around 2,3 million would get this tag^^.

And both of your posts don't warrant this tag, even though there is something forgotten.

Provence said:

And both of your posts don't warrant this tag, even though there is something forgotten.

And I've seen posts in tagme which are as tagged as my Houshou post, which is what pisses me off. Then we see ones like the Akashi one which are using it as an excuse to avoid tagging.

kuuderes_shadow said:

eye colour is accounted for with grey eyes

Can add hair ribbon there too.

I'll add hair_ribbon to Houshou, although I didn't think those black marks were hair ribbons. Also adding upper_body, but I'm not sure what sbg is supposed to mean.

Jarlath said:

And I've seen posts in tagme which are as tagged as my Houshou post, which is what pisses me off. Then we see ones like the Akashi one which are using it as an excuse to avoid tagging.

I'll add hair_ribbon to Houshou, although I didn't think those black marks were hair ribbons. Also Addi have upper_body, but I'm not sure what sbg is supposed to mean.

/sbg is simple background.

And your first paragraph is exactly what I'm saying:
1. Images who are too good tagged and get this tag.
And then there are images that don't have any or extremely few tags (laziness).

And if only one or two tag is missing:
I think that forum #12251 is the more appropriate place then tagme.

Provence said:

/sbg is simple background.

And your first paragraph is exactly what I'm saying:
1. Images who are too good tagged and get this tag.
And then there are images that don't have any or extremely few tags (laziness).

And if only one or two tag is missing:
I think that forum #12251 is the more appropriate place then tagme.

I think we both agree on that - that's why I dislike tagme: even with the wiki definition, people use it thoughtlessly more often than not. I've only really tried it when I was first uploading, and stopped when I realized that more specific request tags or asking for help in the comments got better results. That, and actually using the search to identify characters and tags using common physical descriptors and the like.

It's not exactly hard to hit level 2 tagging, as long as you get the bulk of what a search for that image would use as common definitions (monochrome for uncoloured sketches, prominent hair style or physical/costume characteristics, copyright). If your can get that far, got shouldn't need the tagme 95 out of 100 times. Asking for help us much better for all involved - for the Uploader who needs to learn the right term, and for everyone else looking for pictures like that.

Basically, you tag the characters, what they're doing, what they're wearing, and how they look, and you're basically good. Tagging background and number of characters/gender is good for more mechanical searches, and is relatively easy compared to tagging copyright of character names.

If you're using tagme after getting all of the above? I don't know why anyone who wasn't being lazy would.

I think the biggest problem that exists is the fact that tagme is not a binary tag; it's not saying that one thing is specifically true or not true like translation_request and translated do. It's filling the role of "I don't know enough tags to properly fill out this image" and "there are plenty of tags on this image but there's an odd detail here I don't know how to tag that doesn't have a *_request tag" at the same time. It's saying "something is wrong with these tags" instead of what is wrong with the tags.

I know "let's create more of these tags" isn't something most people passionate about this want to hear, but I think these two functions should be split. If it were up to me, I'd alias tagme to undertagged or undertagged_image (put that guilt into the user, huh?) and create detail_request as a catch-all for oddball things that a certain user doesn't know how to tag but doesn't want to create a whole new *_request tag for; detail_request would require a comment explaining what detail is needed. This would not only help solidify what the tag is actually for, it would also help enforce against people that use it out of laziness because it's for sure that they didn't mean to ask for some odd detail in the image.

And so, I invoke the decision-admins: @NWF_Renim, @Hillside_Moose, and @Type-kun.

OOZ662 said:

I think the biggest problem that exists is the fact that tagme is not a binary tag; it's not saying that one thing is specifically true or not true like translation_request and translated do. It's filling the role of "I don't know enough tags to properly fill out this image" and "there are plenty of tags on this image but there's an odd detail here I don't know how to tag that doesn't have a *_request tag" at the same time. It's saying "something is wrong with these tags" instead of what is wrong with the tags.

I know "let's create more of these tags" isn't something most people passionate about this want to hear, but I think these two functions should be split. If it were up to me, I'd alias tagme to undertagged or undertagged_image (put that guilt into the user, huh?) and create detail_request as a catch-all for oddball things that a certain user doesn't know how to tag but doesn't want to create a whole new *_request tag for; detail_request would require a comment explaining what detail is needed. This would not only help solidify what the tag is actually for, it would also help enforce against people that use it out of laziness because it's for sure that they didn't mean to ask for some odd detail in the image.

And so, I invoke the decision-admins: @NWF_Renim, @Hillside_Moose, and @Type-kun.

I personally like the idea of aliasing it to a replacement tag like undertagged to encourage people to actually tag properly when possible. The wiki definition is useless when people who are too lazy to tag don't go there to see if they're using it correctly. A detail_request tag or a review_request tag to summon help when required works... assuming they actually do so rather than hitting the help topic or using comments.

Well, having this aiased to undertagged might have an psychological impact to the users who normally use this tag. But still, an alias isn't good enough, since OOZ mentioned that there are multiple functions for this tag. But nonetheless, the second "function" or better said what tagme is now used for, shouldn't be it's original purpose which was to tag undertagged images. Well, two opinions and I'm leading toward the latter, i.e. creating the alias. And since tagme has no tagcount, we can easily split the tag into two things.

But I'm still against creating the detail request-tag. Simply because we have topic #12251.
And other than translation and artist request which went a bit overboard(?), it's easy to maintain for now in this thread. So, I think the need is pretty low of this tag.

Well, short:
Creating the alias to undertagged (+)
Splitting tagme and creating a detail request (-)

Aliasing tagme go under tagged (+)
Adding a new tag to represent the spirit of tagme in a way what actually represents what it's meant for (+)

Well, I though tagme is for undertagged pictures :c. And that this is the core of this tag, while a specific detail can by far exceed level 3. That's why the "How do I tag this (detail)"-thread was created.

Provence said:

Well, I though tagme is for undertagged pictures :c. And that this is the core of this tag, while a specific detail can by far exceed level 3. That's why the "How do I tag this (detail)"-thread was created.

The issue right now is that the tagme tag itself isn't very self explanatory. People are using it in lieu of tagging at all, rather than the "I know I missed something, but my search skills are failing me and I need your help" way it's supposed to be used.

By adding the alias, we're redirecting all of the people who are using tagme when they really mean undertagged to the right spot. A detail_request or similar would describe what tagme was meant to do... while the topic is used for "I'm not sure how to describe this ar all, please help" situations.

As a bonus, the alias means giving instant feedback to tell the user that they might need help.

Jarlath said:

The issue right now is that the tagme tag itself isn't very self explanatory. People are using it in lieu of tagging at all, rather than the "I know I missed something, but my search skills are failing me and I need your help" way it's supposed to be used.

By adding the alias, we're redirecting all of the people who are using tagme when they really mean undertagged to the right spot. A detail_request or similar would describe what tagme was meant to do... while the topic is used for "I'm not sure how to describe this ar all, please help" situations.

As a bonus, the alias means giving instant feedback to tell the user that they might need help.

Well, about the undertagged thing: We have consencus here. That's pretty clear^^.
Still, I have problems with the detail request tag. I don't see any real usage of it. Not is it hard to implement this tag (and if one does this, they can simply add the missing detail and it seems the discussion forum is underused by most users, otherwise threads like the "How to I tag this" would have a much higher page count. And if not and this thread is read by most users, I simply fear that we will get another request tag, that will eventually have such a high amount, even higher than the translation request one, since missing details are nearly everywhere. Even among the best taggers here.
It's also redundant because of the topic I keep mentioning.