pool #1536 - Casual Nudity description is far to broad since description would encompass pool #2709 - Artistic Nude. I feel it needs a clearer definition to prevent complete overlap.
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pool #1536 - Casual Nudity description is far to broad since description would encompass pool #2709 - Artistic Nude. I feel it needs a clearer definition to prevent complete overlap.
To reiterate and elaborate what I've said on post #1952190 - Both pools have themes that lead to overlaps in some cases, but they still cover different types of pictures despite that.
The Artistic Nude pool requires the nudity in the picture to "show the beauty of the human body" rather than being erotic or provocative; that is, either through an artistic pose (in which case it won't be casual), or simply through a particularly beautiful picture, for example.
The Casual Nudity pool is simply for nudity that is not sexual or suggestive in context; hence casual.
As such, a picture may display nudity that is casual in context, but do so in an artistic fashion. post #780806, post #1586793 or post #1238870 - In these three posts, for example, the nudity is clearly both casual in context, and artistic in display; and thus they belong in both pools.
On the other hand, some posts clearly only belong in one of the pools, such as post #1246 where the nudity is clearly casual in context but not particularly artistic in display, or post #215197 / post #518818 where the nudity is clearly artistic, but not necessarily casual.
As such, I feel both pools fill in different purposes, simply that in some cases they may overlap due to the relative closeness in nature and subject; and that is why both pools are related, but not merged.
Now, some pictures may mistakenly be in both pools (and similarly, some pictures may only be in one of the pools when they should be in both,) but I disagree that the pool descriptions are at fault. I'd say that, at most, all there needs to be done is add to pool #1536 a little clarification about what is and isn't considered casual, ie. that the nudity shouldn't just not be overtly sexual, but also inscribe itself in a casual context; from my understanding, that much was implied by the use of casual in the name itself, though.
Some overlap is fine but when one pool can take the entirety of another pool makes one of them either pointless or a description change is needed. Casual nuduty would essentially make artistic nude pointless since the description itself would completely overlap the entirety of artistic nude when if you look at the changes that was made by me then reverted by another from both pools you can see casual nudity has far too broad on what is considered casual as it just requires a Nide artwork that has no sexual connotations. All artistic nude needs is a nude picture of high quality this the complete pointlessness of artistic nude
For some reason, when I think of a "casual nudity" pool, I don't expect to find girls completely alone taking a shower/in the bathtub. (such as post #1081150 or post #1941201), but maybe that's just me.
S1eth said:
For some reason, when I think of a "casual nudity" pool, I don't expect to find girls completely alone taking a shower/in the bathtub. (such as post #1081150 or post #1941201), but maybe that's just me.
I agree since casual is described as an event or attire that is informal in a place or area.
fossilnix said:
We can get rid of the Artist Nudity pool once Danbooru has a "pictures that are, or are reminiscent of, fine art due to their choice of subject, composition, technique and palette" tag.
This would also get rid of the Portrayed pool as well.
S1eth said:
For some reason, when I think of a "casual nudity" pool, I don't expect to find girls completely alone taking a shower/in the bathtub. (such as post #1081150 or post #1941201), but maybe that's just me.
That's what "casual" nudity has always meant in my mind; if that's not the case, then maybe the pool should be renamed to something else to better convey what it's for.
Flandre5carlet said:
That's what "casual" nudity has always meant in my mind; if that's not the case, then maybe the pool should be renamed to something else to better convey what it's for.
adjective
adjective: casual
1.
relaxed and unconcerned.
2.
not regular or permanent, in particular.
3.
happening by chance; accidental.
4.
without formality of style or manner, in particular (of clothing) suitable for everyday wear rather than formal occasions.
noun
noun: casual; plural noun: casuals
1.
a person who does something irregularly.
2.
clothes or shoes suitable for everyday wear rather than formal occasions.
A bath or a shower is a formal occasion to be nude regardless of whether or not there are one or more persons in the same space. An artistic nude is a formal show of beauty. Candid shots like post #481605, post #703423, or post #197265 shows a relaxed and informal placement of the models. Artistic Nude does not show the same relaxed and unconcerned look and feel within the picture post #915828, post #749219, post #775043, or post #836107. It shows formality in the nude, purpose even. Artistic Nudes are not irregular they are sanctioned and scheduled as to the reason the models are generally alone or secluded from high amounts of traffic unlike post #498560 or post #460800. I tried to clean both of these pools in accordance to these differences which would keep them generally separate but I got reprimanded and my work reverted. The current way that both pools are being carried Casual Nudity would make Artistic Nude pointless since all of pool #2709 would fit the criteria for pool #1536.
Diabolicwave said:
A bath or a shower is a formal occasion to be nude regardless of whether or not there are one or more persons in the same space. Candid shots like post #481605, post #703423, or post #197265 shows a relaxed and informal placement of the models.
Yes, and that's why these are in the Casual Nudity pool, but not in the Artistic Nude pool as well.
Diabolicwave said:
Artistic Nude does not show the same relaxed and unconcerned look and feel within the picture post #915828, post #749219, post #775043, or post #836107. It shows formality in the nude, purpose even.
Yes, and that's why these only in the Artistic Nude pool, but not in the Casual Nudity pool as well.
However, just because certain pictures only fit one or the other of these two pools, doesn't mean that other pictures can't also overlap and fit both pools if the nudity fills the criteria for both, as shown by for example post #1586793, post #1238870, post #1220354, post #677492,... where the nudity fits a casual context and is also artistic as per the two following meanings:
artistic (adj.):
1. conforming to the standards of art; satisfying aesthetic requirements
2. showing skill or excellence in execution
His point is that being nude in an onsen does not fit the critera for casual (regarding clothing) (--> post #1586793)
I don't think he disagrees with you about post #1220354.
I suppose it comes down to a different understanding of the same word, then. To take the example of post #1586793, it seems plenty casual going by the definition of "relaxed and unconcerned". But well, I've already exposed my thoughts so I'll withdraw now.
Sorry to revive a 4 year old thread but i wanted to propose another change to the Casual Nudity description. Namely the removal of regular bathing scenes from it.
This is because, as it is right now, a very large portion of it is just people taking baths.
There's nothing "casual" about that. You mostly have to be nude to take a bath in a bathhouse, tub or shower. This makes the pool not interesting noteworthy, or even distinct enough from a regular 2 tag search.
I'm pretty sure that at some point the description specifically mentioned that the images had to contain characters that were casual about being nude in situations where they normally weren't supposed to be. Like post #2984502 or post #3078042.
I can also see that you briefly discussed the merits of bath images but it was mostly just the distinction between artistic and casual pool images and not the merit of having bathing scenes in here.
Yeah I never understood why those kind of images gets added to the pool. One exception would be if it's mixed bathing and one or more characters aren't embarrassed around each other, I think the pool fits in that case.
Rampardos said:
Solitary bathing is casual if you define casual as the inverse of sexual. If there are a lot of sexual or suggestive bathing images, it might be useful to categorize some of them as casual in that case.
But what's the point of this?
I consider the definition from keonas as the much better one. Bathing/Showering is normally performed nude, so there is nothing "special" in those cases that require a pool.
Unbreakable said:
Yeah I never understood why those kind of images gets added to the pool. One exception would be if it's mixed bathing and one or more characters aren't embarrassed around each other, I think the pool fits in that case.
Definitely, that sounds like a noteworthy scene where characters are being casual about being nude.
Rampardos said:
Solitary bathing is casual if you define casual as the inverse of sexual. If there are a lot of sexual or suggestive bathing images, it might be useful to categorize some of them as casual in that case.
Sure but, we mostly define casual as being relaxed, or doing something irregular. In this case, isn't being nude during bathing technically speaking formal wear for the occasion? So, not casual at all?
Ok, i'm done being a smartass. The point mostly is that those images, under this description, don't seem like anything worthwhile to single out.
There are a lot of noteworthy images in the pool however that fit the bill but, are drowned in all the benign bathing images.
Maybe we could split them up, into a "non-sexual bathing" [working title] pool and this, but that would be splitting hairs i guess.
The other thing would be to enforce their presence in the description, but if we can define the non-sexual bathing images well enough, they're simple enough that it could just become a tag. Still not worth a pool as a result.
It's not like it's unusual for Danbooru to have its own definition for something, but it also doesn't have to have anything to do with the word casual, either. It just happens to be the name of the pool. If people keeping adding these images to the pool, it might imply people specifically want to find non-sexual images that may or may not include bathing.
If there's an argument to be made, that's it. I don't actually care either way. People were making the case one way and claiming not understand the counter argument, so I made it because it seemed simple to me.
Anyway, if everyone else is in agreement then go ahead with the changes, but if you keep running into this sort of problem you may want to consider a non-sexual nudity pool or tag.
Rampardos said:
It's not like it's unusual for Danbooru to have its own definition for something, but it also doesn't have to have anything to do with the word casual, either. It just happens to be the name of the pool. If people keeping adding these images to the pool, it might imply people specifically want to find non-sexual images that may or may not include bathing.
If there's an argument to be made, that's it. I don't actually care either way. People were making the case one way and claiming not understand the counter argument, so I made it because it seemed simple to me.
Anyway, if everyone else is in agreement then go ahead with the changes, but if you keep running into this sort of problem you may want to consider a non-sexual nudity pool or tag.
I agree that there are people who would like to find images of such kind via pool, however it doesn't mean it is the right pool for people to add and find the image given that the environment of bathing have its own special mental conception represented by it. Therefore if there are such demand then another pool should be constructed instead.